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Published on September 26, 2012 By Frogboy In Elemental Dev Journals

 

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Who can ever forget the epic battle shown at the beginning of The Fellowship of the Ring?  Sauron the Maiar was able to wipe out hosts of men and elves in a single swing.  So terrible and powerful was he that he single handedly kept the armies of the last alliance at bay.

And yet…

There is a balance. Because what most people don’t realize is that the power of Sauron seemed great only in relation to his foes.  Some time in the past, the host of Numenor – mortal men – no elves, so overwhelmed Sauron and his allies – when Sauron was at his peek, that they were able to take him prisoner (this didn’t end well for Numenor in the long run).

And before then…

The half-elf, Luthien’s guardian companion, Huan, single handedly defeated Sauron in combat. Single. Handedly.  Huan was, essentially, a dog. How’s that for humiliating?

And before then…

A single elf nearly crippled Morgoth in single combat. Morgoth is to Sauron what Sauron is to Aragorn. Morgoth was a Valar, an entire order beyond what Sauron was. Practically a god.

The point being is that you don’t have to cripple the champions to make the soldiers you train relatively powerful.  The challenge is balance. And it is, to be certain, a significant challenge.

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In the world of Elemental…

In the picture above, on the left, is Resana. She is the Empress of Krax. A Level 6 Channeler. She is quite mighty but only a wisp of what she will become later.  Next to her is a party of Krax Legionaires.  In Beta 5-B, they take 8 seasons to train (in Beta 5-A, the current public one, they’d take 17 turns to train).  In 1 on 1 combat, Resana would win unless the Legionaires got lucky in combat (critical hits).  But if there were two parties of them, she’d lose.

What changed?

What made training units unpleasant was that unless they were total junk, they took a long time to train. The equipment and skills were simply adding far too much training time. Why bother researching all this great tech if you couldn’t build it? So a considerable amount of time was spent relooking at how much equipment and traits should cost.

Another big change has to do with loot.  This is something we will be working more on. But in previous betas, it was common (literally) to find high end weapons very quickly – just laying around.

What we are moving towards, instead, is where you find cool loot early on but it’s not nearly as over powering. Your sovereign and champions start out with fairly low grade weapons (8 attack).  It’s a bit de-balancing to simply luck out and find a 12 attack +4 speed weapon.  That’s a 50% increase in raw damage not to mention a 25% improvement in initiative.

So instead, Resana finds interesting weapons with trade-offs. A Iron War Hammer that does 12 attack (yay) but weighs a lot (slowing her down) and lowers her initiative.  It makes her tougher in battle (she is doing more damage after all) but it also means she’d need troops to keep herself from getting swarmed. That’s just one example. 

Powerful, rare weapons are out there still. But they have to be earned. You won’t just turn over some lost cargo and find a magic broad sword anymore.

The other change we made has to do with hit points.  Previously, units gained 4 hit points per level.  So by level 10, that’s an additional 40 HP. It doesn’t take long before the trained units become almost irrelevant to the battle because that level 10 champion would have 60 HIP while that newly trained unit might half less than half of that.

The Goal

We do want players who have invested in their champions to be able to win epic battles, single handedly. However, we also want players who invest in building an empire to be able to achieve victory equally effectively.  In the early betas, the champions were considered to weak. The pendulum has swung too far the other way.  Beta 5-B will be our first pass at bringing balance to this conflict.


Comments (Page 1)
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on Sep 26, 2012


Very nice. I like the ideas that you present here and the goal of what you are trying to achieve. By this description alone I am very excited for the upcoming game.

on Sep 26, 2012

Cool.

on Sep 26, 2012

YES! For me this is the major problem of the game right now. But I don't want champions to be nerfed, shorter training times, some HP adjustments and slightly less powerful loot sounds like a much better plan.

on Sep 26, 2012

Looking Good.

on Sep 26, 2012

Sounds good to me

on Sep 26, 2012

  Two thumbs up from me!

on Sep 26, 2012

So what are you doing with HP?  HP should have a higher base and a lower growth than they do now.  

on Sep 26, 2012

THANK YOU FROGBOY!

 

This is exactly what I was looking for in balance. I'm gonna buy ur game, bro.

(EDIT)

I agree with Lord Xia above; it does sound like that's what you're doing - I hope so.

on Sep 26, 2012



   
Powerful, rare weapons are out there still. But they have to be earned. You won’t just turn over some lost cargo and find a magic broad sword anymore.
The other change we made has to do with hit points.  Previously, units gained 4 hit points per level.  So by level 10, that’s an additional 40 HP. It doesn’t take long before the trained units become almost irrelevant to the battle because that level 10 champion would have 60 HIP while that newly trained unit might half less than half of that.
 

 

 

There are two issues I have with this. The first is that it does nothing about the randomness of champion strength. Technology should allow champion specific weaponry (and armor) that regular units cannot use, and champions should have a steamlined path of progression that isn't a roll of the dice.

The second is that as far as hp is concerned, the reverse is the problem. Champion (and single tile unit) hp is too low, resulting in random chance often deciding survival, while regular unit hitpoint get rediculous very fast. Currently it is possible to design a unit with 12hp (with the +3 hp trait) and with a command post will start them at level 3. That is an automatic 20 hp per unit. Straight out the door even with the most basic grouping techs, that is 60-100hp. This can get absurd with enchantments and some of the high end buildings and a 9-man group can easily hop out the door with more than 200 hitpoints.

on Sep 26, 2012

Lord Xia
So what are you doing with HP? HP should have a higher base and a lower growth than they do now.

Via the change log for .981 they have

Changed hit points from 4 (base) + 4 (per level) to 6 (base) + 2 (per level) so a few levels don't make such a dramatic difference

on Sep 26, 2012

We do want players who have invested in their champions to be able to win epic battles, single handedly.

I want to quote this bit because it is important. Note Frogboy says "players who have INVESTED in their champions". Currently, there is no trade-off for making uber champions because you do not need to invest in them. Hopefully, this means champions will be more (but not completely!) dependant on the advancement of your faction, expressed through Research (to unlock gear) and Gildar (to decide what can be purchased and for how many). Less great gear easily available, a stricter enforcement of tax benefits on Gildar, and a faster tech progress (0.981 changelog) may mean exactly that. Hopefully.

on Sep 26, 2012

parrottmath

Quoting Lord Xia, reply 8So what are you doing with HP? HP should have a higher base and a lower growth than they do now.

Via the change log for .981 they have

Changed hit points from 4 (base) + 4 (per level) to 6 (base) + 2 (per level) so a few levels don't make such a dramatic difference

 

Ooh, well then, yay!  

on Sep 26, 2012

There is also the problem that around mid-game, units train at significantly lower level then what your sovereign and other champions would be.  And since they gain levels more slowly, they still could not possibly keep up with heroes.

Also, I believe that in order for cities to become more meaningful, hero's abilities ought to be tied to research and city improvements just like trained units (sort of) are.

[EDIT] So in conclusion I agree with the folks above who landed their posts while I was writing

on Sep 26, 2012

There does need to be some tie in with Champions and cities.  There needs to be a reason that champions need more and better cities, that there is a reason to want more and better cities.  

on Sep 26, 2012

Great news Stardock, thanks for listening.

 

CdrRogdan
This can get absurd with enchantments and some of the high end buildings and a 9-man group can easily hop out the door with more than 200 hitpoints.

 

The whole differing group sizes thing should've been axed imo. It just complicates balance so much. One group size for the entire game would work just fine and everything could be more easily balanced around it.

 

 

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