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Published on September 26, 2012 By Frogboy In Elemental Dev Journals

 

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Who can ever forget the epic battle shown at the beginning of The Fellowship of the Ring?  Sauron the Maiar was able to wipe out hosts of men and elves in a single swing.  So terrible and powerful was he that he single handedly kept the armies of the last alliance at bay.

And yet…

There is a balance. Because what most people don’t realize is that the power of Sauron seemed great only in relation to his foes.  Some time in the past, the host of Numenor – mortal men – no elves, so overwhelmed Sauron and his allies – when Sauron was at his peek, that they were able to take him prisoner (this didn’t end well for Numenor in the long run).

And before then…

The half-elf, Luthien’s guardian companion, Huan, single handedly defeated Sauron in combat. Single. Handedly.  Huan was, essentially, a dog. How’s that for humiliating?

And before then…

A single elf nearly crippled Morgoth in single combat. Morgoth is to Sauron what Sauron is to Aragorn. Morgoth was a Valar, an entire order beyond what Sauron was. Practically a god.

The point being is that you don’t have to cripple the champions to make the soldiers you train relatively powerful.  The challenge is balance. And it is, to be certain, a significant challenge.

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In the world of Elemental…

In the picture above, on the left, is Resana. She is the Empress of Krax. A Level 6 Channeler. She is quite mighty but only a wisp of what she will become later.  Next to her is a party of Krax Legionaires.  In Beta 5-B, they take 8 seasons to train (in Beta 5-A, the current public one, they’d take 17 turns to train).  In 1 on 1 combat, Resana would win unless the Legionaires got lucky in combat (critical hits).  But if there were two parties of them, she’d lose.

What changed?

What made training units unpleasant was that unless they were total junk, they took a long time to train. The equipment and skills were simply adding far too much training time. Why bother researching all this great tech if you couldn’t build it? So a considerable amount of time was spent relooking at how much equipment and traits should cost.

Another big change has to do with loot.  This is something we will be working more on. But in previous betas, it was common (literally) to find high end weapons very quickly – just laying around.

What we are moving towards, instead, is where you find cool loot early on but it’s not nearly as over powering. Your sovereign and champions start out with fairly low grade weapons (8 attack).  It’s a bit de-balancing to simply luck out and find a 12 attack +4 speed weapon.  That’s a 50% increase in raw damage not to mention a 25% improvement in initiative.

So instead, Resana finds interesting weapons with trade-offs. A Iron War Hammer that does 12 attack (yay) but weighs a lot (slowing her down) and lowers her initiative.  It makes her tougher in battle (she is doing more damage after all) but it also means she’d need troops to keep herself from getting swarmed. That’s just one example. 

Powerful, rare weapons are out there still. But they have to be earned. You won’t just turn over some lost cargo and find a magic broad sword anymore.

The other change we made has to do with hit points.  Previously, units gained 4 hit points per level.  So by level 10, that’s an additional 40 HP. It doesn’t take long before the trained units become almost irrelevant to the battle because that level 10 champion would have 60 HIP while that newly trained unit might half less than half of that.

The Goal

We do want players who have invested in their champions to be able to win epic battles, single handedly. However, we also want players who invest in building an empire to be able to achieve victory equally effectively.  In the early betas, the champions were considered to weak. The pendulum has swung too far the other way.  Beta 5-B will be our first pass at bringing balance to this conflict.


Comments (Page 10)
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on Oct 04, 2012

DsRaider
One idea that occurs to me is to make champions have to be respawned via the build queue upon death. With higher level ones requiring more production. Thus you would need high level cities for high level champions, although only if they die.

Interesting idea. One issue is that the production is quite dynamic, so a player could for example micro-manage the spells cast on the city like set in stone and enchanted hammers to temporarily game the system. Also there is the issue that we don't really have any control where a hero retreats. The city production value isn't necessarily representative of the empire's progress - I could be retreating to a level 1 city just formed at the frontier to see my level 15 sovereign spend the next 50 turns sitting in its queue.

 

Taltamir had another excellent idea a bit back, that cities could be able to remove injuries from heroes after the city built certain improvements (if I remember right). It makes for some target goals that you can invest in, in order to boost the heroes (keep them useful even if they die). It is a bit more flexible because we could move a hero to a certain city with the right improvements after we suffer an injury.

 

Heroes currently suffer a "time-out" period when they are forced to retreat from a battle. They spend X turns in the closest city recuperating, before they start to regenerate health and you can move them. Techs could also provide a reduction to this time (also make the time longer to compensate).

 

One big problem, in my opinion, is how quick heroes regenerate life. Often I don't have to wait at all with the fighting until my hero is ready to go at full health. This regeneration for heroes could also be reduced, and in turn there are buildings that boost local regeneration and perhaps techs that boost global regeneration for heroes only. Another way to force the player to invest in heroes to make them efficient.

on Oct 04, 2012

How about this:

1. Add a tech "revive (or heal) Champion) to Magic techtree and put it somewhere at start. If your hero dies before you research it - tough luck.

2. When the hero is defeated, it suffers a wound as now and is removed from the map completely. If you have "revive" tech researched, you can revive the hero at the city of your choosing (treat the hero in build queue like a one-per-faction building for this purpose). Make the revival cost a lot , but much less if done in Conclave (is that possible?)

 

Alternately, create a new building (hospital or something, maybe again one per faction) where you can recuperate your champion if you have it built. Now you're able to do it in one city only, but you can choose which one it is.

 

Bad thing about this suggestion is how to make AI use it efficiently. After all, they receive more wounds (hence their champions die much more often) than players'.

 

 

on Oct 04, 2012

Heavenfall
Interesting idea. One issue is that the production is quite dynamic, so a player could for example micro-manage the spells cast on the city like set in stone and enchanted hammers to temporarily game the system. Also there is the issue that we don't really have any control where a hero retreats. The city production value isn't necessarily representative of the empire's progress - I could be retreating to a level 1 city just formed at the frontier to see my level 15 sovereign spend the next 50 turns sitting in its queue.

Playing the game is NOT gaming the system.

Yes it might be a problem when a level 15 hero hits a level 1 city just built, so there probably should be an upgraded logic thingie to send your hero to a city with actual production.

Heavenfall
Taltamir had another excellent idea a bit back, that cities could be able to remove injuries from heroes after the city built certain improvements (if I remember right). It makes for some target goals that you can invest in, in order to boost the heroes (keep them useful even if they die). It is a bit more flexible because we could move a hero to a certain city with the right improvements after we suffer an injury.

This is easily combined with the first one I quoted about, to make cities even more important for heroes, well when heroes die.

Heavenfall
One big problem, in my opinion, is how quick heroes regenerate life. Often I don't have to wait at all with the fighting until my hero is ready to go at full health. This regeneration for heroes could also be reduced, and in turn there are buildings that boost local regeneration and perhaps techs that boost global regeneration for heroes only. Another way to force the player to invest in heroes to make them efficient.

Yea heroes heal way too quickly, either that or trained troops heal way too slow.

King_Felix
Bad thing about this suggestion is how to make AI use it efficiently. After all, they receive more wounds (hence their champions die much more often) than players'.

Don't fret for the AI too much, It can't be too hard to code: Hero have 1-2 injuries, locate a city with hospital and rest there until injuries are gone...
The resurrection spell depending on cost etc... Would have to be coded in by frog, but that is why there is a developer on the AI isn't it?

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

on Oct 04, 2012

GFireflyE

@CogBurn: Simple solution here would be for the sovereign and other heroes require an upkeep such that you required cities to maintain them. The higher the level of champ, the better the city(s) you need to support them. 

The problem with this idea is it only forces me to maintain a city, not to produce troops. I can still steamroll the world with 1 unit, my invinci-sov. That is the problem. Unkillable, neigh invulnrable, omnipotent, force of nature, wrath of god, 1 man wrecking crew champions/sovs.

Playing with xp & leveling rates to solve this is a fool's errand and impossible to ever truly balance with the number of variables in the game. I think the easiest, simplest, and most strategically/tactically enjoyable solution is to present gameplay challenges that require judicuous application of things produced by your cities -- troops in particular -- to overcome.

on Oct 04, 2012

Heavenfall

Taltamir had another excellent idea a bit back, that cities could be able to remove injuries from heroes after the city built certain improvements (if I remember right). It makes for some target goals that you can invest in, in order to boost the heroes (keep them useful even if they die). It is a bit more flexible because we could move a hero to a certain city with the right improvements after we suffer an injury.

How about starting simple, like a 1% per city level chance that a hero stationed there heals one injury? So on average a hero would spend 20 turns stationed in a lvl 5 city to heal one injury.

If that is possible you could have other things increase the chance of healing. Having another hero stationed there with life magic could increase the chance by 1% per rank in life magic. Or a hero with a 'field medic' promotion increases it by 1%, 'battlefield surgeon' increases it by another 1%. Or a hospital improvement could, along with providing some benefit to stationed troops and the towns citizens, increase the chance by another 1%. Or the enchantments 'Glyph of Life' and 'Aura of Vitality' could add another 1% each. Etc..

One small thing, you'd need to get a notification that an injury was healed, otherwise you'd have to check on the hero each turn or run the risk of missing that he/she was healed.

Slightly off topic, but it ties in with my idea above of having life magic increase the healing chance; it it possible to have a hero's abilities only work when he/she is in a city? I know some abilities do this already, like reducing unrest or building costs, but those could only affect a city anyway. But how about say the merchant ability; is it possible to have it only generate gildar when the hero is in a city?

on Oct 04, 2012

I think for the sake of making it a significant investment into heroes, it'd be better to have no chance at all in the start, then have buildings with a chance to remove injuries at around mid-game (if the player focuses in that direction). Otherwise you still get a chance to remove injuries even if you don't invest into that sort of stuff (yes it's smaller, but it's still there).

If the devs are not into having a chance, these buildings could be building up a resource the player can then use to cast a spell that removes a random injury at point X. It gives the player significantly more control of how and when though, but the city remains as the "resource production center". (the spell could also do other things such as force the hero to stay in one place for X turns while the magic works)

on Oct 04, 2012

Thing is, proposals like that -- while cool and something I'm in favor of, don't get me wrong -- aren't addressing the core problem that given time, patience, and especially equipment, your sov/champs can still solo the entire world.

Having your cities more involved with recovery after death is neat but doesn't help with the fact that it's still possible to win with only 1 unit that never dies.

on Oct 04, 2012

Heavenfall
I think for the sake of making it a significant investment into heroes, it'd be better to have no chance at all in the start, then have buildings with a chance to remove injuries at around mid-game (if the player focuses in that direction). Otherwise you still get a chance to remove injuries even if you don't invest into that sort of stuff (yes it's smaller, but it's still there).

This is probably the best way to do it, through buildings and/or levelup choices.

CogBurn
Thing is, proposals like that -- while cool and something I'm in favor of, don't get me wrong -- aren't addressing the core problem that given time, patience, and especially equipment, your sov/champs can still solo the entire world.

Every post can't focus around heroes owning the world, we have said this on multiple occasions, so I figure the developpers know

Sincerely
~ K

on Oct 04, 2012

I'd like to see champions (and the sovereign to) having to go back to the nearest city when killed in battle, even if u end up winning the battle.

on Oct 04, 2012

@CogBurn; True, it doesn't address that, but I wasn't trying to make a suggestion that would fix everything at once. It is something that could help, if implemented along with some of the other suggestions made before. Balancing heroes with troops is something that really should be nailed down before the game is released. Although to be honest, I'm not sure if it's even possible right now with the current game mechanics to have them both balanced against troops, each other, monsters, and still be able to 'go Sauron'. Imho it's rather doubtful that they will home in on some 'sweetspot' that does just that by making some changes to the amount of hps received on level up, damage done per attack, initiative bonuses, etc. Not without making some changes to the game's mechanics, which sadly is off the table.

@Heavenfall, sure the spell thing could work, but while you are getting ready to cast that the hero is still running around gaining xp. Having to park him in a town takes him out of the game for a while. Investing in that town to take that idle time down from ~50 to ~15 turns would be interesting I think. Especially if injuries were a bit more crippling, so running around with more than one or two would be almost suicidal.

Btw, as the resident mod guru, do you know if it is possible to hero abilities only be effective when in a city? See my question above..

on Oct 04, 2012

Heavenfall
One big problem, in my opinion, is how quick heroes regenerate life. Often I don't have to wait at all with the fighting until my hero is ready to go at full health. This regeneration for heroes could also be reduced

 

^Wonderful idea!

Natural regeneration rate should be directly related to the number of troops in a unit - ie. 1 champion regens MUCH less than a 9 man company.

on Oct 04, 2012

Kongdej
Every post can't focus around heroes owning the world, we have said this on multiple occasions, so I figure the developpers know

Sincerely
~ K

If you solve that problem you don't need to worry about injury healing city improvements and spells and build queues and all that. It seems quite a bit simpler to attack the cause than the symptom.

I'm not trying to come off as an obnoxious broken record, but when I see these suggestions like 'what if we had buildings that had a 1% chance to heal wounds and incapacitated champions got put into the city build queue while they recovered...' I start thinking "keep it simple, stupid". What if we just had monsters with traits that troops handled easier than heroes did? Simple.

on Oct 04, 2012

Satrhan
@CogBurn; True, it doesn't address that, but I wasn't trying to make a suggestion that would fix everything at once. It is something that could help, if implemented along with some of the other suggestions made before. Balancing heroes with troops is something that really should be nailed down before the game is released. Although to be honest, I'm not sure if it's even possible right now with the current game mechanics to have them both balanced against troops, each other, monsters, and still be able to 'go Sauron'. Imho it's rather doubtful that they will home in on some 'sweetspot' that does just that by making some changes to the amount of hps received on level up, damage done per attack, initiative bonuses, etc. Not without making some changes to the game's mechanics, which sadly is off the table.

They could do it with some monster traits that are difficult for champs & sovs to fight but easier for troops to counter, coupled with more larger groups of weak monsters. You don't have to juggle hp and xp and such from the champion side, just present some world challenges that are most easily met with standard troops instead of champions, along side the current challenges like dragons that are most easily met with champions and such. Reward a mixed army. It won't take chages to game mechanics to accomplish it, it won't even take finite balancing of weapons and armor to get it started.

on Oct 04, 2012

Heavenfall
One big problem, in my opinion, is how quick heroes regenerate life. Often I don't have to wait at all with the fighting until my hero is ready to go at full health. This regeneration for heroes could also be reduced, and in turn there are buildings that boost local regeneration and perhaps techs that boost global regeneration for heroes only. Another way to force the player to invest in heroes to make them efficient.

Indeed I also pointed this out earlier. Lower health regeneration is a must. Also my rebuilding champions idea would allow players to respawn the champions in any city they choose to. You would pick them out from the training queue like a normal unit. 

Like I said,and others have pointed out, this wouldn't solve the basic problem with champions. I also suggested earlier that the rate of experience required for higher levels be increased and the addition of improvements that increase the experience growth of champions. This would provide a bonus to champions with cities backing them up anyway. Also you could add the experience bonuses directly to the hero line of techs. 

on Oct 04, 2012

SOLOSOL



Quoting Heavenfall,
reply 137
One big problem, in my opinion, is how quick heroes regenerate life. Often I don't have to wait at all with the fighting until my hero is ready to go at full health. This regeneration for heroes could also be reduced
 

^Wonderful idea!

Natural regeneration rate should be directly related to the number of troops in a unit - ie. 1 champion regens MUCH less than a 9 man company.

Definately very interesting idea.

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