Brad Wardell's site for talking about the customization of Windows.
Published on September 26, 2012 By Frogboy In Elemental Dev Journals

 

image

Who can ever forget the epic battle shown at the beginning of The Fellowship of the Ring?  Sauron the Maiar was able to wipe out hosts of men and elves in a single swing.  So terrible and powerful was he that he single handedly kept the armies of the last alliance at bay.

And yet…

There is a balance. Because what most people don’t realize is that the power of Sauron seemed great only in relation to his foes.  Some time in the past, the host of Numenor – mortal men – no elves, so overwhelmed Sauron and his allies – when Sauron was at his peek, that they were able to take him prisoner (this didn’t end well for Numenor in the long run).

And before then…

The half-elf, Luthien’s guardian companion, Huan, single handedly defeated Sauron in combat. Single. Handedly.  Huan was, essentially, a dog. How’s that for humiliating?

And before then…

A single elf nearly crippled Morgoth in single combat. Morgoth is to Sauron what Sauron is to Aragorn. Morgoth was a Valar, an entire order beyond what Sauron was. Practically a god.

The point being is that you don’t have to cripple the champions to make the soldiers you train relatively powerful.  The challenge is balance. And it is, to be certain, a significant challenge.

image

In the world of Elemental…

In the picture above, on the left, is Resana. She is the Empress of Krax. A Level 6 Channeler. She is quite mighty but only a wisp of what she will become later.  Next to her is a party of Krax Legionaires.  In Beta 5-B, they take 8 seasons to train (in Beta 5-A, the current public one, they’d take 17 turns to train).  In 1 on 1 combat, Resana would win unless the Legionaires got lucky in combat (critical hits).  But if there were two parties of them, she’d lose.

What changed?

What made training units unpleasant was that unless they were total junk, they took a long time to train. The equipment and skills were simply adding far too much training time. Why bother researching all this great tech if you couldn’t build it? So a considerable amount of time was spent relooking at how much equipment and traits should cost.

Another big change has to do with loot.  This is something we will be working more on. But in previous betas, it was common (literally) to find high end weapons very quickly – just laying around.

What we are moving towards, instead, is where you find cool loot early on but it’s not nearly as over powering. Your sovereign and champions start out with fairly low grade weapons (8 attack).  It’s a bit de-balancing to simply luck out and find a 12 attack +4 speed weapon.  That’s a 50% increase in raw damage not to mention a 25% improvement in initiative.

So instead, Resana finds interesting weapons with trade-offs. A Iron War Hammer that does 12 attack (yay) but weighs a lot (slowing her down) and lowers her initiative.  It makes her tougher in battle (she is doing more damage after all) but it also means she’d need troops to keep herself from getting swarmed. That’s just one example. 

Powerful, rare weapons are out there still. But they have to be earned. You won’t just turn over some lost cargo and find a magic broad sword anymore.

The other change we made has to do with hit points.  Previously, units gained 4 hit points per level.  So by level 10, that’s an additional 40 HP. It doesn’t take long before the trained units become almost irrelevant to the battle because that level 10 champion would have 60 HIP while that newly trained unit might half less than half of that.

The Goal

We do want players who have invested in their champions to be able to win epic battles, single handedly. However, we also want players who invest in building an empire to be able to achieve victory equally effectively.  In the early betas, the champions were considered to weak. The pendulum has swung too far the other way.  Beta 5-B will be our first pass at bringing balance to this conflict.


Comments (Page 2)
10 Pages1 2 3 4  Last
on Sep 26, 2012

How timely

on Sep 26, 2012

[quote who="Jean=A=Luc" reply="16" id="3236675"]Great news Stardock, thanks for listening.

 


Quoting CdrRogdan, reply 10This can get absurd with enchantments and some of the high end buildings and a 9-man group can easily hop out the door with more than 200 hitpoints.

 

The whole differing group sizes thing should've been axed imo. It just complicates balance so much. One group size for the entire game would work just fine and everything could be more easily balanced around it.

 

 [/quote]

 

I have said this for years!  Years! 

on Sep 26, 2012

Sounds really good, cant wait to see how your efforts pay off!

on Sep 26, 2012


Can't wait to see the change.

 

Is there any chance you are going to let us create our own magic items for champions?

 

****Edit---are you going to address the Path of Governor issue.  You need to level them up by fighting, but then they are not doing their job.  Make a building to be constructed called the Governor's Office.  You can assign one Governor to it, and they can experience while they are doing Governor work.

on Sep 26, 2012

After giving it some thought the big problem with champions was they snowballed quickly without requiring anything from cities or techs at all. Thus they quickly outpaced the city part of the game and rendered it pointless. The reduced hitpoints, lower level loot, and reduced build times will definitely help but I think they will simply slow down the initial snowballing not stop it. Once your champion finds even a shortsword and gain 2-3 levels he will still be able to start questing and farming pretty much every monster, which will lead to the better equipment. In fact faster build times on units will actually allow them to farm because it is easier to back your champions up with troops. 

I think this will delay the exponential growth of champions and that we will see more troops used to back those champions up early however champions will still outshine everything else midgame. Although the reduction in armor and hitpoints will reduce their ability to tank a bit once they get higher armor and attack then most monsters they will still easily farm monsters and snowball competly divorced from the rest of the game. 

Stardock could kill two birds with one stone by making the midgame monsters like ogres, troll warriors and whatnot tougher. Then heroes ability to farm will be further delayed and all the quests and lairs won't disappear quite so fast, which is another big problem. If a monster has less defence then leather troops it's basically a free lunch. Some non end game lairs should be tough enough that single champions can't consistently take them down, they should require troop back up. Perhaps divide lairs into clear stages, ie early game, midgame, lategame, and endgame. With those lairs having attack and defence values comparable to unarmored clubmen, leather axemen, chainmail macemen, and platemail with mauls. Monsters right now don't scale with troops or champions very well. 

on Sep 26, 2012

DsRaider
Stardock could kill two birds with one stone by making the midgame monsters like ogres, troll warriors and whatnot tougher.

I think this is already in for Beta 5b.

This is quoted from the .981 Change Log:

Monsters were given many traits (Frail, Endurance I, Endurance II, Tough, Large, Monsterous) that impact their hit points per level

on Sep 26, 2012

mqpiffle
Monsters were given many traits (Frail, Endurance I, Endurance II, Tough, Large, Monsterous) that impact their hit points per level

That was just to counteract the fact that base hp per level was reduced. So monsters were nerfed as well. I'm not too worried about hp. It is the low defence and attack on some monsters that is the problem because the defence and attack of champions grows really quickly. A champion with a good weapon does a lot of damage versus a monster with no defence. 

on Sep 26, 2012

DsRaider
That was just to counteract the fact that base hp per level was reduced. So monsters were nerfed as well. I'm not too worried about hp. It is the low defence and attack on some monsters that is the problem because the defence and attack of champions grows really quickly. A champion with a good weapon does a lot of damage versus a monster with no defence. 

In addition, by mid level, an ordinary champion can cast pretty effective tactical spells.  by the time a mid level monster is able to hit a champion they have taken several hits, or have been hindered by numerous spells.  The changes Frog talked aobut will help slow the pace, but the fact that all the champions have spells, will only slow it some what.  By mid game, a stack of 3 or 4 champions is going to be able to kill almost any monster den

on Sep 26, 2012

Currently equipment ramps up too fast and tops out too high, and there are no enemies that specialize in slaying champions thus requiring masses of troops to help with. Anything troops can do, champions can do better, given enough equipment and some levels.

Some effort needs to be made to bring the extreme low and high ends of weapons and armor a bit closer together.

on Sep 26, 2012

Intelligent monsters (troll, ogres, darklings, etc.) should spawn more spell caster and ranged types.  Why are the no boulder hurling ogres?  I haven't seen a troll shaman in forever.

on Sep 26, 2012

These balance changes sound great.

I want to have more incentive to have troops than right now. I'd also love to see research impact/help/progress champions to a greater degree. Right now the only benefit lies in buying equipment you've researched, but something that would add traits, give XP, etc. sounds cool. We have some of that with the Magic line, but both Civics (for those Governor-based champions) and Warfare to add more benefits would be nice.

on Sep 26, 2012

I think we all know how I would solve the gap between units and heroes. Give levelup bonuses to Fortress from the city level. You can even tie hero power to cities by adding in new shop items from hero techs or simply reduce the cost of shop items over the course of the game so more heroes can get great armor and start to level. 

 

I also like the idea that some monsters like Trolls and Ogres should be more powerful, midgame foes. If you see one in an area, run. Come back later on and try to kill them off before they grow into an army. The rewards from loot and new resources will drive this sort of balance. 

on Sep 26, 2012

seanw3
I think we all know how I would solve the gap between units and heroes. Give levelup bonuses to Fortress from the city level. You can even tie hero power to cities by adding in new shop items from hero techs or simply reduce the cost of shop items over the course of the game so more heroes can get great armor and start to level. 
 

Let the champions go to the weaponsmith and armor and design their armorer.  After completing it costs, 175 gold, 35 crystals, and 20 materials.  or whatever.  This will let you customize your champions a little bit more.

on Sep 26, 2012

[quote who="Jean=A=Luc" reply="16" id="3236675"]

The whole differing group sizes thing should've been axed imo. It just complicates balance so much. One group size for the entire game would work just fine and everything could be more easily balanced around it.
 [/quote]

 

The thing is, guys, we can have an honest difference of opinion about this.  Actually, I like that fact that trained units grow in size, over the course of the game, as their training and tactics improve (including group cohesion, and interdependence).  To me, this just feels right ; like with Greek phalanxes representing better fighting units, as they evolved over time; and later: Roman legionaires, etc. 

Again, it's an honest difference of opinion.  Some of us (at least me) like the groups to grow over time, as part of their tactical evolution ...

One Big Area of Agreement:  Frogboy's Post here sounds great -- well thought out, and responsive to the feedback that many of us have been providing.              Balance Rules ! 

10 Pages1 2 3 4  Last