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It. Is. On!

Our story so far…

As an AI test, I see how well the Drengin do in what would normally be a multiplayer game. I have this map where I play as the Terran Alliance run by those crazy primates from Sol 3 (aka Earth) from the year 2245.

My opponent are those brutal, skin eating bastards from Drengi who recently wiped out their own sub-species the Korath because, they’re just that nasty.

In the previous tests, it’s been a sad sad story of me just wiping out the stupid AI.  But now a month of heavy duty AI coding has gone in.  Let’s see how they do.

Notices

First off. I’m turning off FOW.  I’m doing this to better view what they’re doing.  So we can all see what’s going on.

Second, I’m playing on normal. So the AI gets no advantages, bonuses, etc. whatsoever.  So overall, as the human, I have a slight advantage.

Starting Locations

In this corner the humans get their watery planet that they have ironically named Earth.

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The main stats:

  • Manufacturing: 7.7
  • Research: 8.3
  • Net taxes paid in: $6.7
  • Approval: 50%

 

Now, let’s look at that polluted crap hole called Drengia.

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The main stats:

  • Manufacturing: 12.5
  • Research: 10.8
  • Net taxes paid in: 0
  • Approval: 40%

So they’ve already adjusted their spending and rush built a work camp.  The Drengin are naturally disconent because, again, their home is a crap hole.

Turn 0

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This is the whole map.  The AI cannot win through attrition here. It has to play intelligently.  There’s no opportunity here for shenigans since I can see everything it is doing every turn.  The goal isn’t to be fair but to see how well the AI plays.

Early Choices

I am going to play as Benevolent.

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I chose to rush colony ships a bit faster than the Drengin so I take an early lead in planets: 4 to 3. 

The AI makes a mistake: Tries to colonize Mars.  I don’t have an API yet that lets me make a good judgment (without hard coding which we’re avoiding) on whether a planet is too far in someone else’s influence to bother with.

Expand: Complete

By turn 30, all the planets are filled. How we doing?

imageimage

They’ve caught up in power.

And in total production:

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Exploit and Exterminate:

But I have planetary invasion and in fact, I have 9 techs they don’t have. They only have 3 I don’t have.

I am also going to see how much I can exploit the game’s influence system.  Have we balanced this properly?

AI mistakes

The AI should be able to take notice that I have invasion tech and start putting defenders in orbit. Instead, they’re building constructors

Which is a shame because I’m totally going to exploit it.

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And so I do. And they die.

Where did  they go wrong?

That’s easy. We intentionally make it easy for a player to see what techs other players have. It’s vital. And the AI simply didn’t respond to the fact that I had invasion tech.  They should have switched to building some defenses. If they had done that. It would have been a very different game.

UPDATE: THE REMATCH

The rematch

After a day of coding I think I’ve gotten them to be much better in the area of situational awareness.  I am confident I can beat them in a fair fight but I expect to have to work a bit more.

Let’s find out:

Turn 0:

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This time I’m optimizing from the start so it’ll be even harder on the AI.  I’m going to b-line to warfare and conquer them.

  • Manufacturing: 6.7
  • Research: 17.7
  • Net taxes paid in: 0
  • Approval: 50%

vs.

image

  • Manufacturing: 12.5
  • Research: 10.8
  • Net taxes paid in: 0
  • Approval: 40%

Now, the thing to remember here is that the particular game I’m playing is not representative of a normal game. I am b-lining in tech so I have my tech way up at 18.  Plus, the Drengin tend to focus more on manufacturing. 

The other thing to remember is that the Drengin are not as good as the humans economically but are really good later game with their fleets (they pay slightly less in maint). This means that in a short game, I have a slight advantage by picking Terrans.  Once I’m satisfied with the AI, I’ll probably do Terran vs. Terran games.

Exploit and Exterminate!

I got invasion in only 36 turns. I bought up research centers instead of taking an extra planet.

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This means we both have equal numbers of planets (4 to 4).

and this time..

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The Drengin have started building token defenses just in case.  The system is actually reasonable accurate in that it can tell whether I’m in range of their planets (i.e. if someone is off on a huge map they won’t care as much).

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He’s definitely keeping an eye on me.

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Here we come…

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The Drengin have a Mark II defender class ship (they call the Tho-Altha) in orbit. That…is unfortunate.

Let’s take a look at the home worlds..

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  • Manufacturing: 17.3
  • Research: 18.2
  • Net taxes paid in: 6
  • Approval: 58%

The Drengin are putting some effort on getting some money.

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  • Manufacturing: 23.1
  • Research: 11.8
  • Net taxes paid in: 1
  • Approval: 51%

We are relatively even.  The AI is being punished a little because approval doesn’t currently matter as much as it probably should. The AI is taught to keep its approval decent.  I think eventually high approval will translate to production bonuses.

Too late

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He saw the threat but was too slow to do anything about it.  He had defenders on his border planets but not back at his core worlds.  Admittedly, lack of FOW made that possible.

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I won’t be able to get Kona though.

Meanwhile, I took one of his other planets.Not sure what happened to that ship that he had.  I know the AI can get a little aggressive in decommissioning “old tech”.

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What he does have are pretty decent ships. His battle cruiser is giving my battle master a work out.

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However, and this is where GalCiv III shines: I have a Prototype ship called the Sherman. Prototype ships are the result of owning special resources. In this case, I have an anti-matter resource.

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Anyway, it’s only a matter of time.  I need to get the AI to surrender at this stage since it’s hopeless.

What mistakes did they make?

The first one is something that might be a bug. One of its shipyards lost its sponsors because they were in my territory.

The second issue is that the AI probably should have a cheaper defender ship. It shouldn’t be about having a great defender but rather an inexpensive one that does the job. Will have to think more on it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Comments
on Apr 18, 2015

It is a lot like the cliche montage sequence where the master teaches the student by whacking the student over and over with a stick until the student learns to stop it.  It both cruel and inspiring, and there should be swelling background music. 

I can tell the difference in behaviors, even with the version we have and the few skills I have.  I knew this would be one of the more interesting parts of the project.  I am getting a deeper appreciation of AI subtleties.   Not that I really claim to understand these subtleties, just follow along with their progress.  That's fun for me, so this is great!

on Apr 18, 2015

I love seeing these and how things are changing, but just curious...what would happen if you switched and you were the Dreng?  Would the Terrans then make the same mistake(s) the Dreng did?  Are you going to have to do these for each race then and if so, wouldnt that make it very hard to balance, considering the traits and bonuses some of the other factions get?  Not to mention, what will the AI do with custom civs we make or if they play against them?

on Apr 18, 2015

There's broad stroke issues and detail stroke issues.  The broad stroke ones are things that apply generally. If we were playing the game MP, I would be watching closely to see when you got invasion tech. Every player should do that.

A detail stroke issue would be like the decision on whether to focus on logistics (bigger fleets) or hull sizes (bigger ships).  There's a case to be made either way.

on Apr 19, 2015

Very nice post!

its's inspiring indeed and fun to read.

thanks for sharing, Frogboy

on Apr 19, 2015

Yes any cheap defender with any puny weapon. Just so no transport could sneak in and take out an undefended world. And the fast model of interceptor to patrol its borders from transport would be nice. In GC2 I used to sell obsolete ships to the good races (they always used to be far weaker then evil). I was making more money that way then decomissining and was raising my ally's military standing a little. Can I do the same here I wonder?

on Apr 19, 2015

Update: You should make such playthroughs with the other races too!Because I think you mostly tune the Drengin to be competetive and in the end they always overpowered imba race while the others are sloppy and stupid. I know this from GC2 and after last patch people report the same for GC3.

on Apr 19, 2015

Bloodlust1983

Update: You should make such playthroughs with the other races too!Because I think you mostly tune the Drengin to be competitive and in the end they always overpowered imba race while the others are sloppy and stupid. I know this from GC2 and after last patch people report the same for GC3.

Defending yourself from invasion is something that applies to every race.

 

Also, I don't know what map setting you were playing on but for me in gal civ 2 Thalans were the ones frequently near or at the top and Drengins were usually in the bottom half.

 

Edit:  The point I was trying to make is that map size, game pacing, tech trading on or off, how many races etc make the game play out vastly different.  Having each race be equal on any combination of settings isn't even close to possible without making the races play exactly the same.  Which isn't worth it.

on Apr 19, 2015

Yeller123


Quoting Bloodlust1983,

Update: You should make such playthroughs with the other races too!Because I think you mostly tune the Drengin to be competitive and in the end they always overpowered imba race while the others are sloppy and stupid. I know this from GC2 and after last patch people report the same for GC3.



Defending yourself from invasion is something that applies to every race.

 

Also, I don't know what map setting you were playing on but for me in gal civ 2 Thalans were the ones frequently near or at the top and Drengins were usually in the bottom half.

 

Edit:  The point I was trying to make is that map size, game pacing, tech trading on or off, how many races etc make the game play out vastly different.  Having each race be equal on any combination of settings isn't even close to possible without making the races play exactly the same.  Which isn't worth it.

 

Whatever the settings when one race colonizes half the galaxy and others barely do 5-10 worlds then there is something wrong with the ai. A have tested that repeatedly in GC2 and there are always 1-2 races far on top of any others. Now I'm reading on this forum reports from people that drengin do have 200 worlds and hundreds of warships while others barely have 50. What kind of balance is that?

on Apr 19, 2015

Bloodlust1983

Whatever the settings when one race colonizes half the galaxy and others barely do 5-10 worlds then there is something wrong with the ai. A have tested that repeatedly in GC2 and there are always 1-2 races far on top of any others. Now I'm reading on this forum reports from people that drengin do have 200 worlds and hundreds of warships while others barely have 50. What kind of balance is that?

 

In 4x games a good start will tend to snow ball into a bigger and bigger advantage as the game goes on, but I've never seen the kind of disparity you're talking about until races get conquered.

On occasion an AI or two will get a really bad start and stay small, but if you eliminate those they end up in the same ball park.

Using population as a substitute for planets because I don't want to count colonies on an immense map the top 10 races (of 18) in my current game range from ~170 billion to ~100 billion spaced out fairly evenly on the chart.

on Apr 19, 2015

Bloodlust1983

that drengin do have 200 worlds and hundreds of warships while others barely have 50. What kind of balance is that?

actually this was a bug something to do with the race traits or something and the drengin were 2x as powerfull as they should have been i believe thats been fixed for 5.3 but cannot confirm this

on Apr 19, 2015

Thanks for answering my question Frogboy...appreciate the fact you take the time out to do that.

on Apr 19, 2015

androshalforc


Quoting Bloodlust1983,

that drengin do have 200 worlds and hundreds of warships while others barely have 50. What kind of balance is that?



actually this was a bug something to do with the race traits or something and the drengin were 2x as powerfull as they should have been i believe thats been fixed for 5.3 but cannot confirm this

The report I mentioned appeared after 5.3 was released. So the issue is still there.

I do believe that has something to do with difference in behaviour of the races. Like Drengin colonize very aggressively while some others focus on improving what they already have to make quality over quantity. But in the long run Drengin still win for their economy grows slow and steady and begins to outclass any other rivals unless they go bankrupt on their colony rush. 

Either their colonize strategy should be reworked or the other races should pick up the pace in colonizing.

One thing that might help is to limit colony rush speed by incresing the economic cost. Like it was done in Imperium Galactica 2 where colony ships were VERY expensive and building them took a really long time.

on Apr 20, 2015

Frogboy how do you get the graphs to look that neat and well-defined? Mine look coarse and ugly compared to that.

on Apr 21, 2015

Ed1975

Frogboy how do you get the graphs to look that neat and well-defined? Mine look coarse and ugly compared to that.

I have a newer, internal build.