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Published on April 12, 2015 By Frogboy In GalCiv III Dev Journals

It was a totally awesome weekend for GalCiv AI and perf progress.

There is a lot new in GalCiv III over GalCiv II but one of the most obvious is the number of players and the galaxy size the game supports.

GalCiv II topped out with 16 players. That was a lot for back then when you’re dealing with a non-cheating, sophisticated computer AI that has to design its own ships and planets.

But GalCiv III tops out with 128 players.  That’s 8 times more players than GalCiv II and the map sizes (or more importantly, the number of planets) tops out at around 8 times more as well if you’re really wanting an insane game.

Thankfully, our CPU power has increased by a factor of 6 since then. But that power is a bit deceptive because most of that power comes from multiple cores.  In 2006, the high end machines had 2 cores which GalCiv II made the most of.  Today’s machines have more and we do our best to utilize them. 

Turn Time focus

The most interesting way to get perf improvements is to throw everything we have at it.  In this case, play a game on an insane galaxy with 100+ players.  On Beta 5 (the build you have) each turn took on my monster box 95 seconds by turn 5.  That’s unplayable IMO.

So why was it so slow? Things that are fine with 10 players quickly break down as you add more.  But even at 10 players, those inefficiencies are there.  By the time we finished this evening, we had gotten that time to 24 seconds.  That’s still really long but we’re going to have to soon make tough choices between non-cheating, smart AI and performance. 

The good news is that there’s still a lot of room for improvement between now and release.  On a more reasonable map size, the next beta update should be a pretty spectacular improvement.

AI Focus

The analytics on strategy games show that most people don’t really appreciate good AI. But we know our core customers care about it and that helps motivate me to make sure the AI is as good as I can make it in the time available.  I look at GalCiv III as the starting point as I am sure I’ll get schooled by other players.  But this weekend saw some massive improvements to the way the AI fights wars and detects threats.

The AI improvements were one of the reasons I decided to dive into the performance issue so much.  The things I’m doing are expensive and while I am pretty familiar with how to limit the scope of an AI call, it’s still expensive to do a proper threat evaluation.

Not this week but next week I’ll get started on the diplomacy AI. I’ll be asking for your feedback on possible exploits and such to look out for.

Stability

The stability on the largest maps is still really tough. It’s made a lot of progress recently but it still has a ways to go.  It’s not particularly complicated it’s a matter of optimizing and compressing data to handle those really really really large maps. 

As a practical matter, if you have less than 4GB of memory you should probably not be going beyond large.  The large map size in GalCiv III is really big. The bigger ones are gratuitous but are also being made with the knowledge that in a few years, 16GB and 32GB will be a thing. 

That said: We are focusing a great deal of effort in optimizing memory use.


Comments (Page 1)
2 Pages1 2 
on Apr 12, 2015

Well done keep up the good work im seeing allot of improvements.  Im personally sick to death of dumb AI.  Sid Mires Beyond Earth, Endless Legend, Age of Wonders 3, Distant Worlds and yes Fallen enchantress all for the most part abandoned in part dew to lacking AI as well as other reasons.  And why now i still go back and play Civilization 5, Even though its not necessarily strategically smart with unit placement and combat the AI plans fairly well with diplomacy and assets.  

Just finished a Altarian map on medium.  Influence flipping still way to easy and OP.   AI doesn't seem to understand or see it as a threat.  Got to flipping a planet every other tern including home worlds but buy the end not so much as FU or war form the AI.  Or at lest counter culture to hold me off.  Most of  there worlds seemed to still be making default 1.3 influence levels.  One would think if say Russia Exerted large influence over Ukraine and filliped Crimea there would be a alot of fuss about it going around. 

on Apr 12, 2015

I am a huge GalCiv fan. I've been watching and waiting. I do not want to play the game until it is a finely polished, released, diamond. AI is critical. Very pleased to read this latest post. I love massive map games with about 10 races. Custom races are also very important to me. I much prefer designing a unique race to a spacecraft.  

Keep up the great work.

 

-Marz 

on Apr 12, 2015

AI is the MOST important thing. We will notice the quality of AI. Invest more in AI.

Stability and speed are also quite important  . The game runs quite slow for me (just moving ships around and so on), which seems odd, given that my PC handles all other apps and games fine.  

on Apr 12, 2015

It's great to hear that you're working on the AI and I found your stream on Saturday quite interesting to listen to.

 

If I may be so bold, I think the problem at the center of the AI's lack of competitiveness is how it manages planets.  My current game is on turn 80 and after toggling god mode and FOW I found the large majority of AI worlds has only 2-4 buildings on them.  The problem seems to be that the AI will upgrade buildings before filling empty tiles and that it leaves the wheel at 1/3 manufacturing, 1/3 wealth, 1/3 research on every planet.

 

Until the AI can get its planets built nothing else can help it because no matter how good it is otherwise it won't have the means to resist the player.

 

Getting the AI to fill in all tiles before upgrading and favouring manufacturing until every tile is built should go a long way.

on Apr 12, 2015

Re Culture

The culture buildings are insanely OP'd.  We're balancing

Re AI on planet management

They are going to get a lot better at it.  Right now, they don't know how to set spending on a per planet basis. But that'll come soon.

on Apr 12, 2015

Good to hear fixes are coming.

 

About culture, it might be too late to change, but I realized today that culture isn't effected by population.  Adding population is actually bad because it lowers approval which slows culture growth.  So you just build as many consulates as will fit.

If you had to build farms, stadiums, and a clinic for the consulates to work it would make them more balanced and make culture planets more interesting.

on Apr 13, 2015

In an insane map about turn 100 I met the Drenghi. I had about 28 colonies and the Drenghi had 55. I was ahead of 4 other factions by 8-10 colomies and here they come with 55. I immediately started a trade with them and of course I expected them to be loaded with military tech and since they were ahead of me in power I expected a few nice fleets in their list of ships.

In stead the only tradeable tech they had was population tech and the only ships in their fleet were about 50, no shit, 50 colony ships. Obviously they are draining their population by colonizing soo quickly, and so much, and to their credit they are desperately trying to catch up by researching population tech. Anyway you look at it the Drenghi are acting insane on an insane map.

Anyway, I thought it was interesting and worth passing along. I read another post tonight where the Drenghi had doubled the closest player in colonies so it must be some behavior algorithm that has been thrown for our old friends

on Apr 13, 2015

Smart AI! Smart AI I beg of you! To hell with perfomance it doesnt mean a thing with the crappy ai. I can play 10 turns in a day if it has to be this way but the game must interesting with the cool and powerful AI.

on Apr 13, 2015

Franco fx

In an insane map about turn 100 I met the Drenghi. I had about 28 colonies and the Drenghi had 55. I was ahead of 4 other factions by 8-10 colomies and here they come with 55. I immediately started a trade with them and of course I expected them to be loaded with military tech and since they were ahead of me in power I expected a few nice fleets in their list of ships.

In stead the only tradeable tech they had was population tech and the only ships in their fleet were about 50, no shit, 50 colony ships. Obviously they are draining their population by colonizing soo quickly, and so much, and to their credit they are desperately trying to catch up by researching population tech. Anyway you look at it the Drenghi are acting insane on an insane map.

Anyway, I thought it was interesting and worth passing along. I read another post tonight where the Drenghi had doubled the closest player in colonies so it must be some behavior algorithm that has been thrown for our old friends

This could be their strategy of sorts. Grabbing as much land as they can and then try to improve those worlds so that they get an edge on anyone else who failed to build such big empire. But this is my rough guess maybe this is indeed a bug

on Apr 13, 2015

Great to hear, an intelligent A.I. is very important.

as for stability, in opt-in 0.82, I dared to play a medium sized galaxy with 7 opponents, and constantly get "out of memory" errors after a few turns. I have Windows 7, 8 Gigs of Ram, 1 GB graphic card. I think 8 GB of memory should be able to handle a medium-sized map.

 

on Apr 13, 2015


as for stability, in opt-in 0.82, I dared to play a medium sized galaxy with 7 opponents, and constantly get "out of memory" errors after a few turns. I have Windows 7, 8 Gigs of Ram, 1 GB graphic card. I think 8 GB of memory should be able to handle a medium-sized map.

That depends, how much memory is other programs using on your computer at that same time?  Do you have virtual memory enabled?  All that will play a roll in this.

on Apr 13, 2015

I certainly don't mind the time it takes for the AI to do its thing; although I am use to Medieval II taking its time.  However, with M2TW, you knew which faction the AI was spending the most time with and it made a big difference if you were (able to and) watching the action.

So, there's a bit of a difference between a minute and a half of just blindly waiting and 95 seconds of watching the AI taking its turn with each faction.  When you think about it, half a second per faction is not bad at all!

As for the insane map size: I prefer it for spreading things out.  I certainly don't want an insane amount of habitable planets; especially quality ones.  Nor do I want there to be an insane amount of resources...

Thus, let us all hope that Gal Civ III isn't just More of the same (from II); as it's the "strategy" of the game that interests me the most: Picking the best planets; and making the most efficient use of my Starbases; my Shipyards and et al.

With any luck, I'm still smarter than the computer; even if I'm not as fast.  Trust me, I spend way more than 95 seconds per turn!

on Apr 13, 2015

Franco fx

In an insane map about turn 100 I met the Drenghi. I had about 28 colonies and the Drenghi had 55. I was ahead of 4 other factions by 8-10 colomies and here they come with 55. I immediately started a trade with them and of course I expected them to be loaded with military tech and since they were ahead of me in power I expected a few nice fleets in their list of ships.

In stead the only tradeable tech they had was population tech and the only ships in their fleet were about 50, no shit, 50 colony ships. Obviously they are draining their population by colonizing soo quickly, and so much, and to their credit they are desperately trying to catch up by researching population tech. Anyway you look at it the Drenghi are acting insane on an insane map.

Anyway, I thought it was interesting and worth passing along. I read another post tonight where the Drenghi had doubled the closest player in colonies so it must be some behavior algorithm that has been thrown for our old friends

 

I also had an Insane Map and 16 factions. I also ran into the Drengin at about turn 165 or so. I was ahead of everyone up until then, I had 59 colonies, the Drengin had 95, TONS of Overlords and many many resources. He was #1 in Power, Influence, UP voting power, Military and Population.  Performance was ok, I have a good system and I was averaging about 16-22 seconds per 'turn' thinking. I do notice that if you hit turn and don't click on stuff or move the map the thinking appears to go faster. 

 

Here i was being smug with my 'Elite Fleets' and he comes along and invites me to a B-B-Que. 

 

Ai is definitely BETTER this Beta update. All opponents were on 'Normal' 

 

I think the 'uncommon' habitable planet distribution is (too common) for my tastes. I was running into far too many planets. Granted it was fun but I like the feeling of a large Galaxy and its like Xmas when you see even a lowly class 6. 

on Apr 13, 2015

Can we still look forward to the AI pulling info from saved games to learn from players and whatnot?

on Apr 13, 2015

One worry I have. Can we have an option somewhere to change AI based on map size, or have this implemented automatically? I'm wondering what percentage of players will play (and more importantly finish) an insane 128-player map. I tend to favour small maps and I'm worried that trade-offs will be chosen to suit a small percentage of players on insane maps, where more complex AI would work fine on the smaller maps.

In general map size worries me. I've posted before that the AI still emphasizes range techs on tiny maps, where you need perhaps the first range tech to cover the entire map. This sounds trivial but in a close game having the AI research ten useless techs is a big problem. Also wonders like the Spin Control Center in GalCiv2 were incredibly powerful on small maps but much less so on large maps, with no balance or AI changes accounting for this.

 

TL:DR: I understand the enormous potential size is a selling point for the game. However, what percentage of players are estimated to ever use it to completion? And, if this is large, will it have a significant impact on players that prefer small map sizes?

 

Thanks  

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