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Published on February 8, 2013 By Frogboy In FE Sneak Peeks

Lest you think Legendary Heroes is going to get all the fun, plain old Fallen Enchantress is getting a ton of love too.  We’re working on 1.3 and wow. I don’t want to oversell it but gameplay wise, this will be the biggest change since the pre-release builds IMO.

Where do I start? Let’s start with Diplomacy.

Diplomacy

IMO, the biggest weakness of Fallen Enchantress is the diplomacy system.  There’s still a lot of stuff that could be done here but my biggest beef has been the way the AIs interact with players and you.  One minute they’re your buddy and the next they’re declaring war.

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Now, the schizophrenic behavior of AI players is nothing new. Heck, multiplayer games are much worse in that regard.  But it’s one area that single player games can be much better at. 

I tinkered around the edges in 1.1 and 1.2 but ultimately decided it had to be tossed out.  Sometimes, you have to nuke the system from orbit.  And so the 1.3 diplomacy system won’t really seem different at first glance but under the covers it’s a whole new world.  First, the AI no longer “calculates” relations. Instead, it fills a bucket of love (or hate) that gradually changes over time.  Because it’s now a bucket (that means your history with them matters) there’s a lot of interesting behind the scenes “stuff” I can do. 

Unfortunately, most users won’t even be aware of these changes but I think the expert players will.  For instance, AI players will be more inclined to offer peace even if they’re stronger. That’s because it’s not calculation relations, it’s looking at your history together and the history of others.  So it’ll look at what is in its best interests overall.

Smarter

The AI is quite a bit smarter.  The problem with these games is that it’s hard to have the AI be “smart” if the designer isn’t that good at the game.  I’ve gotten a lot better at the game thanks to those players who post YouTube videos of their strategies. I incorporate those into the AI (and use them myself).  For example, you very well may get creamed by the AI getting the Forge of the Overlord (spell of mastery victory) as a lot of players win that way and the AI focused too much on conquest.

Balance

We’re also doing a lot on the balance front.  One of my pet peeves is how many “empty” turns there are.  It’s a habit we brought over from GalCiv II that we’re curing (or starting to cure) with v1.3 of FE.  Things will definite “move” a bit faster.

For instance, the differences between Towns, Conclaves, and Fortresses has been significantly increased.  Towns provide a lot more gold. Conclaves a lot more research. And Fortresses a lot more production.  The AI has the advantage here because it’s able to calculate the right balance based on looking at other players (you can look at other players too but most human players don’t – but it’s fair game to the AI since we let you look at the other player stats).

World Generation

1.3 is the first version with procedural tile yield support.   That basically means that the map generator will look at a lot of other factors when deciding the tile yield of a given tile is.  The result is a lot more variance.

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FUN!

Generally speaking, FE 1.3 is just a lot more fun.  That said, the best way to make the game more enjoyable is to get more units for each side.  The AI doesn’t design its own units. It uses what you create. The more units you give a faction, the smarter the AI gets.

Why?

So why are we putting so much effort (and hence $$$) into making Fallen Enchantress even better? Well first, it’s important that Legendary Heroes be distinct. Legendary Heroes is an expansion pack. It’s not supposed to make the game funner by “fixing” things in FE.  It’s about expanding on concepts already there and adding new ones. FE 1.3 is about taking an already fun game, taking feedback and what we’ve learned and polishing it. 

I’m pretty excited for 1.3 to get out. I don’t have a date yet. My guess is probably in 2 weeks.

Spell of Making: DEFEAT

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Ultimately in my test game, Pariden won by casting the spell of making.  I’m requesting some tweaks so that there’s more warning when the various factions are constructing the towers leading up to it since this caught me by surprise and I only had 10 moves to do something about it.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Feb 09, 2013

It really sounds awesome! I was always a bit disapointed at seeing all my enemies with all their magical towers and yet, not using it. 

Increasing the differences between kinds of cities sounds fun too. At the moment, I feel it is a bit like "have one fortress at your border, have one conclave for the special potions, the rest all towns". At least, for me it tends to be that way. Now, it will be more viable to have a warmonger faction with lots of fortresses, popping units over and over, or a scholarly faction getting really, really ahead on research by having lots of conclaves.

on Feb 09, 2013

Real nice bunch of improvements here. I was hoping for a spell of making update. Nice to see that's a factor in the game now and not just an easy escape to victory for the player. Still a warning or gang up system would be welcome. Like the tile changes and the bigger difference between towns, conclaves an fortresses.

on Feb 09, 2013

Sounds great, frogboy!

Has the AI ability to break pacts and tributes next round been fixed as well? This is most serious bug of current diplomacy system...

Or at least make it cost them hefty sum of gold or influence (LH: fame)  

on Feb 09, 2013

Thanks  Frogboy, the update sounds really great!

Please consider making Stormworld an official part of FE. Compensate the folks who made the mod, polish it up, maybe add some content, and completely integrate it into FE.

on Feb 09, 2013

1.30 = great news !

If you're looking at the diplomacy system, one thing that should also change is the tech agreement: today the best deal is the cheapest (with weak AI) since it gives a bonus as a % of OWN tech, so you get something and AI gets crumbs (and the expensive ones: you get the same and AI gets lots).

It should be the other way around: tech agreements should provide a % of the OTHER player's tech rate, so expensive tech agreements are worth much more. Would also act as a balance mechanism between runaways and stalled AI, which the game is very lacking (AI enters positive or negative spiral, no damping or 2nd chance mechanisms)

on Feb 09, 2013

Legendary Heroes is an expansion pack. It’s not supposed to make the game funner by “fixing” things in FE.

 

Good to hear..I was honestly feeling a bit yerked by Legends in this regard..but I chalked it up to the way business works these days.

on Feb 09, 2013

I hope the diplo UI is getting a spruce up as well, especially when the AI contacts the player. The player has no information at his or her disposal when trying to make a decision with the current crappy UI interface.  I would also like the ability to counter the AI's demands/offers.

on Feb 09, 2013

looking forward to this

on Feb 10, 2013

Hey Frogboy, can the high score table get some love, I'd like the game to keep a record of past game scores and a way to look at them any time I want.

 

 

on Feb 10, 2013

Brad,

 

I have done my best to give detailed feedback in these two posts:

 

https://forums.elementalgame.com/438225

 

https://forums.elementalgame.com/439638

 

but no stardock employee has read them that I can tell.  I just ask that you take a look at my discussion of granularity giving more balance control, and read my specific feedback about bugs and typos so that the game can be... better. I am happy about the bucket diplomacy changes, and particularly excited about the legendary heroes revamp since the game can really benefit from a broader combat diversity (see your post about failed cutting vs blunt) and deeper customization. I am actually thankful that the whole "Free to Elemental preorders" thing will end with the Legends expansion, because I believe in voting with my wallet. Your company gives me hope for an alternate future in which game developers actually care about their finished product and their customers.

on Feb 10, 2013

This is good news news - after 300 hours or so, the AI's predictability is starting to get a little stale for me. This is going to reinvigorate the game, I suspect. And if the AI is more likely to go for Spell of Making, well, that's guaranteed to make things more interesting. 

Thanks for continuing to work on FE - looking forward to hear more about LH. 

on Feb 10, 2013


I like the changes that you are making to further differentiate - conclaves, fortresses and towns as currently I find that I can with just Fortresses, and looking forward to the AI changes.

on Feb 10, 2013

davrovana
This is good news news - after 300 hours or so, the AI's predictability is starting to get a little stale for me. This is going to reinvigorate the game, I suspect. And if the AI is more likely to go for Spell of Making, well, that's guaranteed to make things more interesting. 

Thanks for continuing to work on FE - looking forward to hear more about LH. 

What he said, the only thing I really think is too wrong with the current AI is it always pursues some of the same items and goals, if I can predict what the AI will do I will always win... Well if I wasn't such an airhead anyway

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

 

on Feb 10, 2013

The problem i always had with the AI in Galactic Civilizations 2 would be partly due to my play style. I would always focus on research, economy, and industry so my exchanges with the AI would go something like this.

AI: Hey you! i see you don't have as many ships as me!

Me: Yeah so what?

AI: I hate you now! give me everything you own or else!

Me: What, no?! i'm not going to give you every credit and planet i own you moron

AI: Fine war it is then

Me: You do realize i am number one in Technology, Economy, and Production power right?

AI: You a horrible person. You must die!!!!!

 

I would use my better resources to build a fleet of ships designed to counter everything he had. Since the AI focused on number of ship more  than quality it was easy to build ships basically immortal and stop everything at my border while i continued my empire building. I didn't always feel like being forced to absorb more territory. Then things would go like this:

Me: Hey i've killed literally like a 100-200 ships of yours i haven't lost a single unit. you want peace?

AI: You are losing this war, it is only a matter of time now. But if you want peace we can do that for oh say.... 4 of your planets! Muahahahahaha

Me: Fine i will pin you on at least half your planets

AI: Nope we are still winning, you are horribly weak and we don't care we haven't been able to kill a single ship while crippling our empire throwing ships at you.

I pretty much had to strip 3/4's of there entire territory of ships for the AI to finally want peace. and usually just barely at that. It never mattered how well there PERFORMANCE  in the war was.

I think the AI really needs to do the following (i still notice some of this issue in FE, at least the last time played)

  • Keep track of its Wins to Loss ratio
  • A value system placed on units, maybe even a tiered system of value
  • Your best combat units like champions or best equipped infantry, have a higher value and when they have a horrible Wins:Loss ratio (even if you have more overall units) maybe you need to reevaluate your standing in this war
  • Weaker units like scouts and settlers you don't expect to win would have a much lower value or be in a different tier entirely. That way killing 15 scouts wouldn't tell the AI its time to pack it up and go home, but instead tell it your enemy is holding the line well or you are not holding your battle line well
on Feb 10, 2013

Chehalden
I would use my better resources to build a fleet of ships designed to counter everything he had. Since the AI focused on number of ship more than quality it was easy to build ships basically immortal and stop everything at my border while i continued my empire building. I didn't always feel like being forced to absorb more territory. Then things would go like this:

Me: Hey i've killed literally like a 100-200 ships of yours i haven't lost a single unit. you want peace?

Funny, while you are half-right, half-wrong in my opinion, I also think the mechanics are wrong when wars can be fought with no losses (it also happens in elemental, and I don't find it suiting).
Besides that, the AI SHOULD re-think the strategy, and try to either gang up on you, or sue for peace, the problem is, if you can focus research, production and economy peacefully each game you will always have a cheap win, it NEEDS to try and punish you for approaching this goal while having no military, if nothing atleast it would force you to build up a quick military before going into peace again, if you can already wipe out the enemy without much stress you basically won you are just waiting for the "win" screen.
The AI should try to figure out if opponents are trying to out-tech them and either run a tech race or a war of conquest upon those opponents, because if they are set to idle they surely will win after 50 turns of ultra-teching up to mega-destroyers or whatever they get after several turns of awesome teching

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

 

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