Brad Wardell's site for talking about the customization of Windows.

SwampLordPaintingFinal In my mind, the fun of Elemental resides in the fact that you’re not just trying to conquer some fantasy world but the world itself is designed to be so organic and unique from game to game.

A lot of the difference between games is a result of things like a tech tree that has different techs in it, a huge library of special content that is integrated into map generation randomly each game, quests, integrated community content, and the divergent paths to victory.

Now, as some of you know, Stardock’s bread and butter isn’t from game development.  Our desktop software and enterprise software have always given us the luxury of being able to take as long as we want to develop our games as well as take “risks” on the way we release our games (no copy protection for instance – which, in case people are wondering, the retail version of Elemental will not have copy protection).

And that brings me to a question I wanted to pose to you folks.  Would you be interested in us extending the beta?  Since anyone can join betas by pre-ordering, we could try something that really hasn’t been done before as far as I know – make the beta experience something truly outstanding unto itself.

Right now, the schedule is this:

  • Beta 1 in August
  • Beta 2 in October (adds tactical battles)
  • Beta 3 in December (polish)
  • Gamma (private) in January
  • Release in February

This is pretty much the same schedule we’ve been doing since Galactic Civilizations I back in 2003.

But imagine this kind of beta instead:

  • Beta 1 in August
  • Beta 2 in January
  • Whatever

So what would be the point of this?  The point would be to make it a lot more fun to develop the game with the beta testers.  Rather than have v1.0 come out in February and then have v1.1 in say April and so on, we simply keep working on the game with the beta testers.

Then, when we release the game, it’s got a ton more stuff. 

Here are some thoughts that come to mind:

How many players should/can we allow in a game? 8? 12? 32?

How sophisticated can we make dungeons in the game?

How sophisticated can we make quests in the game?

How sophisticated can we make tactical battles in the game?

How big of a scope can we give the campaign?

We don’t have the financial pressure to release the game in February and because of that, we have an opportunity to try something we’ve not done that we think might be really special and that is vastly increase the contribution of the beta players into the game than what we’ve done before.

The end result would, I think, be a game that could very well be a classic. A year’s worth of player input before it was released to the general public. 

Tell us what you think.


Comments (Page 12)
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on Aug 03, 2009

Elemental ideas by itself are innovative and intelligent. I dont see why the beta/gamma should be different. I´d rather wait and help more time during betas/gammas than getting a game that could have more polish/depth from the community. 

Since everyone voted for it, I hope Stardock keep that in mind and go on with this unsual/interesting move.

 

Cheers

 

Kata

on Aug 03, 2009

Sammual



Quoting Denryu,
reply 16

I think a better option might be to continue with the February release date beta cycle, then around December evaluate and at that point ask "Can we release the game that we want in two months?"


"Are there a lot of new ideas that we have gotten from the community from the betas so far that extending the development cycle to August is going to be worthwhile?" All software projects will grow to fill the available time to release, my change of heart is that it might be best to keep the beta schedule as is at least for a few months of beta, with the comfortable knowledge that the option to extend is there.




I agree.  The only change I would make is from "Are there a lot of new ideas that we have gotten from the community from the betas so far that extending the development cycle to August is going to be worthwhile?" to "Are there any new ideas that we have gotten from the community so far that make extending the development cycle a better idea then using them in an expantion?"

Sammual

I agree with your agreement.   Seriously, I don't think releasing an incomplete game and patching things in is a good idea at all, but why not leave the schedule as it is until December. that still give two months before scheduled release to officially bump release to August. If by December the game is shaping up well and although while not feature complete, if the feature list is complete and doable in the next month and leaving a month for polish - stick with February release. If there are still a large number of question marks about wanting to test out a lot of different basic functionality, or if the feature list is not yet complete, or if there is still months of coding and testing and it is a long way from being ready to start polishing the gamma - then go with August.

Deciding in December gives plenty of time to adjust schedules before a February release.

There will be a lot more information in December than there is now.

The only good reason to make a decision now is to extend out the beta periods. Instead of having dates for each beta, like I said before each beta should be milestone driven.

Beta 1 will be closth map only and should last until the functionality that CAN be worked out on the closth map is either complete or at least final decisions on underlying systems (such as economic model, magic system details, etc) are all worked out and at least mostly coded and tested.

Beta 2 should add tactical battles, and should last long enough to hammer it for bugs and work out any balance issues that tactical combat raises.

Beta 3 should be for polish, and then the closed gamma.

Come December you can then look at the two proposed schedules from the OP. If we are still working thru beta 1 issues in December, then moving to August is a no brainer. If the game is at a point that it is ready for finishing tweaks and cleanup for performance etc - pushing back to August makes no sense.

I just want the best game possible. I'll be playing beta so I have no real reason to push for an earlier release, in fact I amm NOT pushing for earlier release. I am just having second thoughts about deciding right now to push it back to August. Why not wait and se ehow things unfold in beta?

on Aug 03, 2009

Denryu
... I am just having second thoughts about deciding right now to push it back to August. Why not wait and se ehow things unfold in beta?

There're probably some bureaucratic factors involved that will make this idea sound silly, but why not give up setting such faraway date entirely? If they can't live without a date, the PR folks could shift to soft goals like a given season or a given half of 2010, leaving the devs able to wait until they have a strong consensus that the public beta has done what it can for them and they're ready to 'let go.'

on Aug 03, 2009

Extend the beta, but beware making it an overly long protracted affair.  Eventually i would like to be playing the finished game that I ordered, umm, ages ago!

I do think that elemental is the sort of game that can benefit alot from player input, there isn't much like it on the market right now and you are attempting to innvoate with it.  Gor for it.

 

on Aug 03, 2009

I am all for the longer beta! Love the concept!

But caution should be used not to make the game too complex - it would not do if only the beta testers would be able to play it.

Having said that - i am really anticipating the long beta .

on Aug 03, 2009

I'm also perfectly ok with extending the time frame of the game.  Perfect it as much as you can to make the best game you can make.  Good luck.

 

1st Ice Age

on Aug 03, 2009

GW Swicord

There're probably some bureaucratic factors involved that will make this idea sound silly, but why not give up setting such faraway date entirely? If they can't live without a date, the PR folks could shift to soft goals like a given season or a given half of 2010, leaving the devs able to wait until they have a strong consensus that the public beta has done what it can for them and they're ready to 'let go.'

IIRC Brad owns Stardock, he can do whatever he wants without any 'bureaucratic factors'.  He / Stardock has enough money that he is doing what he always wanted to do, make the computer games HE wants to play. 

 

Sammual

on Aug 03, 2009

Spartan
For what it is worth and without getting into details, in short, I'm all for the process taking as long as is necessary to make this game the best strategy game ever to hit the market. I would like to see it used as the definitive standard for all other such games.

 

I agree.  I have already paid for Elemental, did so as soon as I could because Stardock has always delivered great games and unbelieable customer support and loyalty.  whatever works best to make the game as great as it can be I am all for...

on Aug 03, 2009

Since an important goal for this game seems to be community added content, I think the game will grow at a much faster pace after release then before. Take the time you need to get the core features working well, and the let the players fill in what content they want.

Stardock should not assume that the community will make Elemental the game it should be through mods. I, for one, am paying for Elemental - the content and tools created by Stardock - not random people's modifications and additions to it. I don't think the game will really grow at a faster pace after release than before - it will change at a faster pace, but only for people who want it to change.

I'm sure I'll download and play with some particularly well-done mods, and I might even tinker myself, but I am not buying Elemental to play user-created mods.

I believe that the modding community would be a great source of inspiration and to extend the beta where they wouldn’t have a stable platform to work off of would lessen the quantity and quality of their work.

Ah but the modding tools themselves will probably be a component of the beta testing. And if that's correct, then modding will happen to the beta, even if the process is buggy and somewhat incomplete. But ultimately, if Elemental has to rely on inspiration from user-created mods created after release in order to be a truly stand-out game, then it is doomed to failure. 

on Aug 04, 2009

pigeonpigeon

[...]But ultimately, if Elemental has to rely on inspiration from user-created mods created after release in order to be a truly stand-out game, then it is doomed to failure. 

I doubt that would be the case given Frogboys history and business acumen.

on Aug 04, 2009

Hmm, not to sound needy, but does this mean that we will see the beta this month? I thought that whole demi-god fiasco had pushed us into september, but the post says august... Is that then just the Alpha, or is thier still hope?

on Aug 04, 2009

Hi,

I'm not going to read the whole thread, but I'm pretty sure there are others here who share my opinion.

I haven't (and am not planning to because paying in dollars is expensive, and I want to wait for specials in my native currency) pre-ordered, so I won't be participating in the Beta. That said, I would far rather wait even a couple of months for v1.0, and have it as polished and bug free has humanly possible, than have to pay a couple hundred bucks for the game, and then have to cap my 2GB ADSL account a month later to download updates... especially when these updates fix bugs that should have been fixed in the original release.

Delay the release as long as you possibly can, as long as this delay is spent TESTING, TESTING, TESTING, to ensure we get something as stable as we can possibly get!

Cheers
Graham 

on Aug 04, 2009

I would support the extended beta to get a superior product, especially (as i suspect is the case) the input fom the beta players is valued and considered.

on Aug 04, 2009

As someone who's preordered, I would wholeheartedly support an extended beta.

I participated in the Demigod beta and I know you guys value the input of your beta-testers; in this day and age where betas usually exist soleley to bugtest, it means a lot that you guys actually take on board new suggestions.

on Aug 04, 2009

endofdayz
Hmm, not to sound needy, but does this mean that we will see the beta this month? I thought that whole demi-god fiasco had pushed us into september, but the post says august... Is that then just the Alpha, or is thier still hope?

The way it looks right now is alpha in August (this week maybe), and beta in September.

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