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Published on November 8, 2008 By Frogboy In Elemental Dev Journals

One of the things in Elemental we've been thinking hard on is how the economic system in the game should work.  Elemental is, first and foremost, about building a civilization that happens to exist in a world filled with magic.

So when it comes to building things, we are trying to get away from the classic "N production units".  There are, for instance, no factories in Elemental. We want players to really understand just how big of a deal it is for a civilization to be able to produce mounted warriors who have metal armor and metal weapons. It's not just knowing how to build such a unit, it's being able to put together the infrastructure to produce such a unit.

Players don't research types of units, they research technologies. Players then design their own units and those designs require certain resources.  A basic soldier with a club is pretty easy. You take a guy, arm him with a big stick. A better soldier might involve same guy, armed with same stick but trained. Now he's much much better but it will obviously take longer to get that unit. It's not about production then, it's about time. 

A still better soldier might be equipped a bronze sword instead of the stick. But that bronze sword didn't just come out of nowhere. The metal had to be mined and then forged and then delivered.  Of course, the challenge from a game-design point of view is that you don't want players to be forced to micro-manage such things. It's supposed to be a strategy game, not an inventory management game.  And so, you make that issue something for your civilization to deal with - not the player.

A given land tile may have a metal resource on it. The player builds a mine on it. That mine then produces N units of metal per turn. That metal then flows to the keep's inventory (in the city). When the keep's inventory gets filled, it then starts getting sent out to other cities (little caravans start appearing on the map delivering this stuff). All of this is automated but evidence of a growing civilization. Players can build warehouses to store more inventory of a resource. A player can also build an armory which produces weapons which flow again into the keep's inventory and then into warehouses if built and then out to the country side to other cities.  Players can build roads to increase the speed in which these resources make it (and incidentally, these caravans only go out sporadically so the map isn't going to be full of these units running around and they're not true units, they'll be almost like decoration except when attacked).

So when I go to build a unit, the amount of time it takes to build that unit is going to be based on decisions I made -- what am I equipping him with. How much training am I giving him? And of course, since populations of "cities" range from 100 to 1 million or so, one of the resources units require are people. A village of 100 people obviously can't conjure up a legion no matter how much money and resources you have.

How will all this actually be implemented? That's where the open beta will come into play. Our development tools allow us to quickly implement many different concepts and UI's. that's where a lot of our work has gone into so that we can make changes like this.  Players saw hints of this in Galactic Civilizations where we could make dramatic changes to the game based on player feedback but it's nothing compared to what we've built for Elemental.

So for instance, do players want to prioritize where these caravans go? How much control do players want of this kind of thing? Would it be more fun to actually have technology branches dedicated to having governors (not AI, just bonuses to supply) that "manage" this.  These are some of the many things that players will be involved in.

The main thing I wanted to get across is that we are not going to have the traditional "N units of production".  Players will be able to design their units, design how much training (a small squad of elite soldiers or a huge mob of untrained brutes or somewhere in between?), decide how well equipped you want them to be and so on.  It's not about sending out a knight. There is no "knight" unit unless you choose to call a unit you designed that has a horse, a soldier who has been trained, plate mail, sword, helmet, etc. a knight when you save it.  How long would this knight take to create? Possibly very little time at all if you have the plate mail, sword, helmet, and horse ready to go. Then it's just a matter of the training time.  Otherwise, it could take quite a long time (the game will estimate the time based on arriving supplies). 

Hopefully this gives you a glimpse at the strategic depth we want to provide players. The choices for players in how they want to play this game are endless.


Comments (Page 8)
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on Nov 17, 2008

Will it be possible to upgrade the equipment of units?

Say I make a unit that takes a while to train, and he has crappy bronze equipment because I don't have anything better to outfit him with. He beats some people up and gains experience from it. Then, I get a new metal, or a new kind of mount, or both, something like that. Will I be able to keep him useful by giving him these new toys?

This is important because it sounds like it will be hard to slap together an emergency defense if you get caught with your pants down due to the training thing - you will need to plan ahead and start building troops well before they are needed. And that will really suck, if there's no way to keep these troops up to date by modernizing their equipment.

I love seeing the old SMAC workshop make its return to 4x. Just making sure that one of the most important things that made it work doesn't get removed.

on Nov 17, 2008

@Lavitage: Well you don't really have to train them, as far as i understand, you could smack together a legion of well equipped, but untrained troops.

@Ron Lugge: Point, but if we go by that train of thought.. shouldn't most of the game be automated then ?

 

on Nov 17, 2008

ImperialDane
@Ron Lugge: Point, but if we go by that train of thought.. shouldn't most of the game be automated then ?

But it's our job as the benevolent dictator to make sure these guys are doing their job and sometimes step in and do it for them.  At least, that's how it works in the real world.  In strategy games, too often you're both roles, which equals zero fun later in the game.

on Nov 17, 2008

@Ron Lugge: Point, but if we go by that train of thought.. shouldn't most of the game be automated then
No...  Grand strategy is my job; in 'small' maps I might even handle the equipment of soldiers, but when the number of soldiers grows to the point that the individual is no longer important, that is what I have advisors / assistants / secretaries for.  (Eh, not secretaries... they get to serve 'under' me in other capacities...  ./snicker, it is good to be the king! )

on Nov 17, 2008

You know, Good generals study strategy, Great ones study logistics

 

Anyway, I'm curiuse to know if, for exempel, there is a Gryphon breading ground near one of my cities, would I be able to "mine" them for a set amount of Gryphons per turn?

I know that there aren't going to be building like Gryphons Aviaries that we could build in our cities but having the option to discover a "natural" source of magical animal to use in unit building would be awsome!

On another note, I sure hope that the number of civilian units will be greater than in GalCiv, I want to be an mpire builder, fighting is for when you run out of land....

 

Warder

on Nov 17, 2008

You know, Good generals study strategy, Great ones study logistics
Study, yes.  Doing the Quartermaster's job for them, no.

on Nov 17, 2008

Not quite the same.. the quartermaster doesn't handle where it actually goes and what goes where... In any case for that it has  been mentioned you can prioritize, but directly telling what units should be upgraded should probably be a job for the player..

on Nov 17, 2008

but directly telling what units should be upgraded should probably be a job for the player..

Defining which units, yes, but hunting them down to do it, no...

 

I think we may be talking at cross purposes or something here...

 

on Nov 18, 2008

Hallo,

I envision an economy run somewhat like Dawrf Fortress...

Example, You start with no way to make any kind of armor.  You must mine until you run into raw materials that can be refined into metal steel or iron or whatever.  Then you must have a someway to heat the forges to melt down the iron ore.  After that you need someone who can create the armor,weapon,tradeable good.

Now lets say you run into gold and cannot find any iron or raw materials to make steel you can create gold armor.... or trade your gold for iron. 

This adds a dimension to the economics that wasn't there before.

Now lets say you want a horse riding knight...

well first you need a knight.... now I wasn't around way back in day when knights templar were around but i do not believe that one is born literaly a knight.  They must be trained, tested, and confirmed into knighthood.

I think this would be attainable by giving one of your generic people aspirations of becoming a knight.

they join the town watch and guard the city and train and gain experience then you import horses from your horse trainer/breeder and train the ride horses.

after leveling up to certain point they can then enter a tourney to become a knight.

I don't think that queing up x knights and you will have them in 3 weeks is that much fun nor does it add the layer of depth that i think can be achieved.

It would also be fun to have your blacksmith level up too and be able to be trained by a wizard or whatever you call them to be able to enchant weapons.

The list goes on... but this is the direction i would go if I was to be the economics designer.

Goober

on Nov 18, 2008

g00berhead: aside from the idea of gold armor (gold is quite possibly one of the worst metals for armor that isn't mercury) and making production of knights historically accurate (it would be way too convoluted, the production time you're talking about would probably make knights obsolete by the time you finished training them, and there aren't going to be any knights in the game anyway unless you name a cavalry unit "Knight", so historically accurate training wouldn't make much sense), that seems to be more or less the idea behind Elemental.

on Nov 18, 2008

g00berhead: aside from the idea of gold armor (gold is quite possibly one of the worst metals for armor that isn't mercury)

Hehe, reading that gave me the mental image of a knight in shiny lithium armor. While it rains.

on Nov 18, 2008

For armor in the historical sense, gold would indeed make horrible armor.  However, there is a possible use.  High density like lead, shares the efficiency in blocking harmful radiation.  Anti-magic armor perhaps?

on Nov 19, 2008

g00berhead: aside from the idea of gold armor (gold is quite possibly one of the worst metals for armor that isn't mercury)

You are correct gold armor is bad option that was the point I was trying to make.  Thank you for understanding.... that is why you would probably choose to trade for iron with another faction.  That would bring on more interesting aspects of starting conflicts if you rely on your enemy to supply you with iron to make weapons it would be hard to destroy them by brute force especially after trade embargos.

The idea being that you work with what you have one faction is NOT entiltled to any one type of armor or metal or resourse you must work with what you have.  So you create imports and exports.

*edit*

it would be way too convoluted, the production time you're talking about would probably make knights obsolete by the time you finished training them, and there aren't going to be any knights in the game anyway unless you name a cavalry unit "Knight", so historically accurate training wouldn't make much sense

the central idea would be the same for building up all units weather it be archers, cavelry, balcksmith, masons.  The more one does their job the better they become.  Anyone may be a mason, but unless they perform thier duties day in and day out they are never going to be very profiect at it.  You can potentially have as many cavelry units as you want very quickly assuming you have enough people, armor, weapons, and horses, but until they train and have battle experience they will be not nearly as effective.

It might be convoluted... but I am not sure what you mean in this context.  It would be hard to determine how fast you could make x units?  well, as long as you have the resourses, relativly quick, but the units would not be very effective until they have time to train.

on Nov 19, 2008

I think the training should be something that can be varied.  This could be a way to rush buy a unit: cut training in half for a penalty that the unit could later buy off by completing training. 

The scenario would be this:  You have your 8 weeks to train knights in a town's barracks being trained and the town gets attacked halfway through the build cycle.  Assuming they had all their equipment and some training they should be able to help defend the town at a lesser effectiveness.  Even if they were missing some equipment they should also be able to defend the town at an even greater penalty.

on Nov 19, 2008

I second Ragnar's proposal. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted units that were still being trained to be usable for defense.

psychoak
For armor in the historical sense, gold would indeed make horrible armor.  However, there is a possible use.  High density like lead, shares the efficiency in blocking harmful radiation.  Anti-magic armor perhaps?
I like the way you think. However, I can't see it as being very effective against fireballs and the like.

g00berhead
It might be convoluted... but I am not sure what you mean in this context.  It would be hard to determine how fast you could make x units?  well, as long as you have the resourses, relativly quick, but the units would not be very effective until they have time to train.
Sorry for being unclear; what I had meant was that training in the manner you described it (select children that you want to be knights, they then train, join the town watch, and eventually get the chance to be knights on the condition that they do well in a tournament) would be unnecessarily complex. I misunderstood your point.

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