Brad Wardell's site for talking about the customization of Windows.
Published on November 8, 2008 By Frogboy In Elemental Dev Journals

One of the things in Elemental we've been thinking hard on is how the economic system in the game should work.  Elemental is, first and foremost, about building a civilization that happens to exist in a world filled with magic.

So when it comes to building things, we are trying to get away from the classic "N production units".  There are, for instance, no factories in Elemental. We want players to really understand just how big of a deal it is for a civilization to be able to produce mounted warriors who have metal armor and metal weapons. It's not just knowing how to build such a unit, it's being able to put together the infrastructure to produce such a unit.

Players don't research types of units, they research technologies. Players then design their own units and those designs require certain resources.  A basic soldier with a club is pretty easy. You take a guy, arm him with a big stick. A better soldier might involve same guy, armed with same stick but trained. Now he's much much better but it will obviously take longer to get that unit. It's not about production then, it's about time. 

A still better soldier might be equipped a bronze sword instead of the stick. But that bronze sword didn't just come out of nowhere. The metal had to be mined and then forged and then delivered.  Of course, the challenge from a game-design point of view is that you don't want players to be forced to micro-manage such things. It's supposed to be a strategy game, not an inventory management game.  And so, you make that issue something for your civilization to deal with - not the player.

A given land tile may have a metal resource on it. The player builds a mine on it. That mine then produces N units of metal per turn. That metal then flows to the keep's inventory (in the city). When the keep's inventory gets filled, it then starts getting sent out to other cities (little caravans start appearing on the map delivering this stuff). All of this is automated but evidence of a growing civilization. Players can build warehouses to store more inventory of a resource. A player can also build an armory which produces weapons which flow again into the keep's inventory and then into warehouses if built and then out to the country side to other cities.  Players can build roads to increase the speed in which these resources make it (and incidentally, these caravans only go out sporadically so the map isn't going to be full of these units running around and they're not true units, they'll be almost like decoration except when attacked).

So when I go to build a unit, the amount of time it takes to build that unit is going to be based on decisions I made -- what am I equipping him with. How much training am I giving him? And of course, since populations of "cities" range from 100 to 1 million or so, one of the resources units require are people. A village of 100 people obviously can't conjure up a legion no matter how much money and resources you have.

How will all this actually be implemented? That's where the open beta will come into play. Our development tools allow us to quickly implement many different concepts and UI's. that's where a lot of our work has gone into so that we can make changes like this.  Players saw hints of this in Galactic Civilizations where we could make dramatic changes to the game based on player feedback but it's nothing compared to what we've built for Elemental.

So for instance, do players want to prioritize where these caravans go? How much control do players want of this kind of thing? Would it be more fun to actually have technology branches dedicated to having governors (not AI, just bonuses to supply) that "manage" this.  These are some of the many things that players will be involved in.

The main thing I wanted to get across is that we are not going to have the traditional "N units of production".  Players will be able to design their units, design how much training (a small squad of elite soldiers or a huge mob of untrained brutes or somewhere in between?), decide how well equipped you want them to be and so on.  It's not about sending out a knight. There is no "knight" unit unless you choose to call a unit you designed that has a horse, a soldier who has been trained, plate mail, sword, helmet, etc. a knight when you save it.  How long would this knight take to create? Possibly very little time at all if you have the plate mail, sword, helmet, and horse ready to go. Then it's just a matter of the training time.  Otherwise, it could take quite a long time (the game will estimate the time based on arriving supplies). 

Hopefully this gives you a glimpse at the strategic depth we want to provide players. The choices for players in how they want to play this game are endless.


Comments (Page 1)
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on Nov 08, 2008

So, we have a soldier building option akin to the ship building options in GalCiv. Awesome.

The beta can't get here soon enough.

on Nov 08, 2008

Simply perfect. If that works out as described, it would be a compeltely new way to handle unit production. And a good one at that!

 

on Nov 08, 2008

Nice. How do roads work? Will they be MoM-like (built by the player) or Settlers-like (appear when enough units have moved along the same path; at least I think this is how The Settlers works )?

on Nov 08, 2008

That sounds great.  It sounds VERY ambitious.

I have a question about the 'Training' component of unit creation.  I've noticed from the screenshots that all units have level ratings.  Would the 'Training' component cause the unit to start at a higher level or would it just increase the base stats of the unit?

Sammual

on Nov 08, 2008

This sounds fantastic.  I am especially intrigued by the caravan idea.  For example, it could force you to police your realm in order to eliminate raiders before they attack your caravans.  Perhaps include a caravan escort option in order to assign soldiers to protect your caravans going from certain cities, or send heroes and/or troops/ships to raid the caravans/convoys of other nations (anonomously of course).

Then there is the whole business management aspect of it, should Stardock choose to pursue that route.  Form trading companies in order to increase commerce and tax revenue, or perhaps even build these aspects into your hero system (give a hero a certain amount of money or goods and some limited direction as to how to spend it, then cut him loose to build an empire).  Or likewise, give a hero a certain number of soldiers and then send him to an area to enrich himself on enemy trade caravans.

Perhaps a certain amount of revenue based on the number of caravans or the bulk of goods being carried on them (economic success is built on the exchange of goods and services, therefore a significant amount of trade will enhance the overall wealth of a nation and the prosperity of its citizens).

I do very much approve of more than a "build a unit, wait a set number of turns until its done" system.

 

One other question.  Naval units and combat... will be included or not?

on Nov 08, 2008

Perfect.

About the caravans : they are just pictures but when can you attack them? They need to have a real unit. Another thing : will the warehouse really be full to expand the goods to other towns? It would be good to have some sort of control over it. For instance a town receive 10 units of coal. You keep 5 then send the 5 to another town. Waiting to have a full warehouse is a little counter productive .. because you won't build bigger warehouse or you would stop supply to your other towns !

Maybe instead of creating the caravan at the start, create it at the end of the "line". You tell to the game thaht the town Blablabla needs coal, then the game create the caravan from the nearest town, and if the town can afford to let the coal go elsewhere. That would be easier to track the needs.

About training : will there be a way to learn "special moves" to soldiers? Like a simpel awarrior with club could learn the special "bash" attack. And a unit can only have as many special attacks as their level (a unit level 5 could have 5 attacks). As you said it, training a soldier is a matter of time but also of what they learn. How to break a shield? How to take cover against AoE spells/Abilites? How to fight certain kind of ennemies (like.. hum.. dragon?)

 

EDIT: Oops ... Forgot to say that .. You gals and guys rocks. 'Nuff said.

on Nov 08, 2008

Sweet! This is exactly what I was hoping for.

on Nov 08, 2008

Sounds like Kohan with the vector and surplus/shortfall.

 

Will you be able to buy the things you're short of with your gold like Kohan?

 

This is something i would not want to see overcomplicating things to be honest, but it can be a reall good addition.

 

 

on Nov 08, 2008

I have a some comments and questions.

1) N units of production: It doesn't sound like you can completely remove the influence of the N units of production system. You at best change things into a supply and demand system where N units of production influences supply. If the demand is higher than the supply, then what ever units you are making will have a production time = to the time needed to produce/acquire the last piece of equipment.

2) "Instant create" system: Your alternative sounds like an 'instant-create' way of making things. If all the needed people are trained, and the required equipment is ready, then will your units will have a production time of 0 when you decide to make them right?

3) Training time: Will units train at a constant training rate, or will certain kinds of barracks allow for faster training?

4) Equipment production speeds: How quickly does it take to make equipment (assuming all supply demands are meet)? Will the quality of the "factories" (black smiths for instance) affect anything, such as the rate of production?

5) Dispand units: When you dispand units, will you gain trained civilians and equipment? Could you then use the equipment and trained civilians to instant create another kind of unit(s)?

6) Supply Governors: Would it be possible to have governors to get other towns to deliver resources to a given city? For instance, if only 1 of my citys can forge items out of adamintine, it makes little sense for the mines to deliver to anywhere else but that city. What about get resources from a list of mines/towns/cities? Having a set number of iron mines suppling a city (and not anyone else) would help to ensure that a desired rate of production is meet.

7) Controling caravans: Will we be able to control caravans in any way? What happens if an enemy army takes a city, thereby block a supply route, and the only alternative is for them to detour through monster infested lands? Can you make the caravans group up and travel with an army so they don't become monster food?

That should be good for now.

on Nov 08, 2008

Sounds really great, Brad.  Very strategy oriented.  It sounds like:

GalCiv freighters = Caravans

GalCiv ship building = unit building

Civilization resources will be implemented, although more of an integrated function

My fear, as expressed by others, is that it will be too micromanagement oriented.  This will greatly depend on how easy it is to obtain resources, produce them, and then manage them.

I'd also love to see some really cool and useful pre-built units, so you don't have to "roll your own" as much as in GalCiv2.  Of course, user generated content can make this better or worse.  Better in that you have more options.  Worse if there's too many options to consider strategically.

I'll be excited to provide feedback on this, and am really interested in seeing how this concept evolves and hopefully becomes really a fun element and not overly realistic.

on Nov 08, 2008

I drool.

 

Doling out these details several months before the first beta test.  It's inhumane!

on Nov 08, 2008

As a baseline , this sounds wonderful. Great flexibility, strategic depth, unlimited types of units ...

But some warning flags, where you have to be careful:

- The game is called War of Magic, and we have been promised populous-like, global havoc. So, in such a game you don't want to spend more than half of a campaign trying to achieve the capability to produce a basic warrior with a blunt bronze sword and no mount. While the overall approach seems great, it shouldn't turn the game into a low-life, ultra-realistic thing. After all, if you are calling down meteors from the sky against your enemies, you would appreciate not having to micro-manage and tear your hair out just to produce a couple of knights going against the dragons.

- Too much micro-management will certainly be a risk. For me, starting to decide where the resources will slowly have to travel seems about the limit.

- While I fully agree with the tech tree approach + training, it can also be said that in a fantasy game you can have any number of magical / mystical ways of improving your units or create new, unique units.  For example, for me it seems much cooler to reserach astrology and be able to produce especially deadly warriors thanks to the right alignment of the heavenly bodies, instead of only dealing with realistic research and resources like iron smithing. I think a combination of both would be best: the realistic techs as a necessary basis, but then you have to go further to develop the fantastic skills.

If this is just taken into account the game would be amaaaaazing!

 

on Nov 08, 2008

Ah, this seems to bring two things I yearn for to the game. It brings a certain sense of uniqueness to a city if it is the main contributor of a certain resource, and as such probably the place that uses those resources the most. "The heaviest armor in our Kingdom comes from Armouria." That kind of stuff.

And the second, which is quite important, is that you can't always just build the best unit in masses. Like in Civilization, once you've researched Knights, you'll just build 30 units of them and crush your enemies. I'm hoping that this system limits the amount of super-elite units you can get, forcing you to use a lot of "trash folk". Sauron's armies were mostly made of orcs, after all, not mountain trolls.

on Nov 08, 2008

Tiavals
Ah, this seems to bring two things I yearn for to the game. It brings a certain sense of uniqueness to a city if it is the main contributor of a certain resource, and as such probably the place that uses those resources the most. "The heaviest armor in our Kingdom comes from Armouria." That kind of stuff.

And the second, which is quite important, is that you can't always just build the best unit in masses. Like in Civilization, once you've researched Knights, you'll just build 30 units of them and crush your enemies. I'm hoping that this system limits the amount of super-elite units you can get, forcing you to use a lot of "trash folk". Sauron's armies were mostly made of orcs, after all, not mountain trolls.

You hit the nail on the head.  What this system will do, in practice, is bring a more realistic and more fun way of playing the game - just because you have the technology to build something doesn't mean you can realy build it.  Just because you can now, theoretically, train elite guardsman, who ride griffins, are armed with magic swords, etc. doesn't mean you're going to start cranking these things out.  Do you have access to griffins? Has your sovereign imbued one of his armories with the ability to create magic weaponry locally or do the arms have to be shipped from across the world? 

on Nov 08, 2008

Frogboy

do the arms have to be shipped from across the world? 

So I suppose the distance these caravans have to travel play a role in the manufacturing speed?

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