Imho, what GFireflyE is saying is that if there are mods at release, that means the game is flawed. This is obviously extremely faulty logic, and I seriously doubt any reviewer sees it like that. I have certainly never seen a reviewer say anything to that effect.

As awesome of a game as it was (and imo the best out of the 5 currently released), it still had some eye-soar errors to it. The map generator. The road spam. The stale end game.

I can understand that modding could have happened to that game fairly quickly.

"Lot's of mods" is also different than "how soon after release before lot's of mods"

In the end, I appriciate that Frogboy & Co are taking the time to appease the 1-5% modding crowd. It's going to chain react into the 10-25% mod-players crowd. However there is still that 75% that will play (and buy) the game for it's vanilla alone.

(the % numbers are posted here are not based on any fact. They are based on my perception of modding in the gaming market)

I agree. Having mods close to release does not mean a flawed game. Needing mods close to release does though (even if the mods can eventually sort it out) which is why his initial point (that it should be as close to perfect at release without mods as it can be) is a good one.

I think your numbers are probably pretty accurate more or less. To me, modding doesn't contribute much in the way of initial sales, but it helps ensure the longevity of a game. 

Civ 4, NWN, Oblivion, Skyrim (Stay tuned), Total War etc are all games that have enjoyed long lifespans due to the modding community and have made the developers profit that has justified devoting a little time to making modding accessible.

Nooo... Frogboy edited the original post?

Since you posted those numbers on the Internet, they must be true.  I'm going to go repeat them on Facebook now. 

Hehe just my thoughts.

GFireflyE trust us, modding is good. Mods released immediately after the game is released can easily be explained by the long public beta FE had. Modders had access to the game for many months now and have been able to start and refine their projects. Serious reviewers will know and mention this, and will also praise how easily moddable the game is and how Stardock supports mods.

I understand your fear that the devs will focus more on moddability than actually polishing the game, but I don't think that is the case. GalCiv 2 for example has received 2 expansion packs and tens of patches which fixed and added features constantly, the last important patch (2.03, because 2.04 was very minor) being released 4 years after the initial launch of the game. So really, don't worry.

Also, noooo ... 20th of September is so far in the future...

The assessment is unfair about this game and modding. The game is in many regards a sequel in terms of game engine. Thus, the mods for e:wom can be easily be ported over and thus lots of mods can be there at the release.

Many older games weren't as easy to mod for many people. The point is that frogboy is partaking in a new paradigm in gaming and allowing the game to be modded simply.

I look at it as play testing a board game and a person is creating house rules. I've seen brand new boardgames before people started playing them they already had house rules to make the game their own, in a way. Modding is no different, because modders want to have fun to and Modding is FUN.

Take monopoly: add the house rule of if you go to jail take a shot of Jack (note be of the legal drinking age to do this mod to the game). Don't need much knowledge about the game or game play to add that house rule. (modded feature). The ability to create a custom sovereign is modding in my opinion, but because it seems like an integral part of the game people feel its not a modded game. Same with NWN which I enjoyed immensely, they had pre-gen characters (non modded game) to play.

Maybe you consider modding the game as changing files of the game outside the game architecture. This, at one point, was only accessible with a hex editor and now newer games are allowing more and more accessibility to the changing of their games. Which equates to more people willing to try to mod their games or change it.

We are existing in a new paradigm where games moddability is an advertisement. In other words, a community that says "Here are my house rules for the game" and a game designer that fully supports this idea (Cheers Stardock).

If you advertise that you can mod the game easily, and had an extensive beta test, and uses a similar engine to another game, and mods don't come out at release, then there is some false advertisement or at the very least a stretch that the game is easily moddable.

The last point is that there are people who derive enjoyment from modding their game. It's their way of creating an experience of a new game that they just don't have the time, or maybe the ability to program from scratch, or maybe they just want to show off their skills and show what can be done with the game . This is a small group and if they are in a beta test, they will mod the beta, if they are able to because they love the game and they are willing to spend the time to do what they love to do best (mess with game files AND play their game).

I applaud all modders of all games, even at release.

Brad wants a little more time to help Kraxis AI.  Did you see how easily he powned him yesterday on challenging?  That shouldn't happen.

Take all the time you want Stardock, there's no rush.

Yes indeed this is a good thing by all means. I was just very excited to play beta 5 this evening.

Longer beta = better game, no doubt.

EDIT: Very good points parrottmath.

No rush, this game has to be gotten right.

I heartily second that.

Note that the current date for beta 5 is the 20th of September.

I call for another week to be added. The 27th is fine with me.