Brad Wardell's site for talking about the customization of Windows.
Published on June 17, 2009 By Frogboy In Elemental Dev Journals

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For those of you not familiar with game development, most of the development is spent designing the engines and technologies that will be used by the game. In our case, about 2/3rds of the time is spent on that kind of thing. 

In many respects, this time is much like developing a traditional software application.  Elemental uses a graphics engine that has been developed over the past couple of years for Society.

Our previous games used an engine called Pear that was developed in the late 90s and enhanced over the years.  The new engine, called Kumquat, has all kinds of goodies (as you'd imagine).

One of the big differences in Kumquat from my personal coding perspective is its use of Python for scripting.  Our old engine wasn't scriptable so everything was written in C++.  Now, Stardock is a bit unusual that we don't tend to use scripts in our games. In Elemental, the only reason we're using scripting is to make it easier for other people to mod the game.

Anyway, now we're starting to put the pieces together to actually make "the game" as opposed to a series of technologies.  That means I finally get to start sinking my teeth into AI.

With Galactic Civilizations, I only got a couple of months to work on the AI and I had to do it basically on my own.  This time around, our team is large enough that I get to work on it longer and I have help.

Not that I don't mind writing functions like get the distance between two points or whatever but having others who can write the worker functions will save me a lot of time.

One other difference in Elemental was the decision to have multiplayer support. There's a single player reason for this - I want to see how people play the game before the game is released so that I can incorporate clever strategies into the AI.

Those of you not familiar with Stardock developed games know that from my personal perspective, the only point to these games is the AI.  Personally, I think it's great that humans want to play the game too but I'm in it for the computer players.  My fun on GalCiv was always watching the different AI personalities fighting each other to see who would win.  But then again, I'm a pretty weird guy.


Comments (Page 3)
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on Jun 18, 2009

Scorpiana
Sorry to reply to my own post, but I just noticed I have two usernames with different passwords (and Member No.)... Is there anyway to combine these?

[email protected]

I may be mistaken but it seems like with MP in the alpha, and likely all MP at this point will be on their servers, they will be able to "record" every game. If they have some learning AI, they would be able to feed all the data of a game and let the game start "learning" from watching human controlled games. Or this could just be wild speculation and this type of AI learning is not even possible, at least not at the game developer level.

Well, remember, the plan was to have the MP AI running off Stardock's own server, so they would have direct control over it. As long as that's how it ends up.

on Jun 18, 2009

Denryu
I may be mistaken but it seems like with MP in the alpha, and likely all MP at this point will be on their servers, they will be able to "record" every game. If they have some learning AI, they would be able to feed all the data of a game and let the game start "learning" from watching human controlled games. Or this could just be wild speculation and this type of AI learning is not even possible, at least not at the game developer level.

I just can't help but think of "WarGames" and WoPR going thru all the possible outcomes of thermonuclear war...wouldn't it be cool for the AI to watch human play, analyze it and develop it's own counters to certain strategic patterns....

Or more likely, Frogboy will analyze the MP games and design his AIs accordingly. But it would be very cool if the former was doable.

 

Makes me think of SkyNet

 

But a learning A.I would be really cool. I guess that the learning A.I will simply be a computer that records what the winning strategies are on what size and type of maps. And if all winning conditions are enabled, what winning condition win most games on what size and type of map.

on Jun 18, 2009

I think that seeing people playing, their strategies and stuff, it´s already a lot of information for Frogboy. If you know what are the best strategies people use, you can make scripts for the AI to act in the same way. Of course it´s not a simple task, but since it´s already being developed with this tought on mind, surely things will go smooth. 

This A.I vs A.I. reminds me of robots fight on those science fairs

on Jun 18, 2009
Wasn't there also something about Stardock using ultra-powerful comps for AI, and people connecting to those AI's in games, kinda like Demigod?
on Jun 18, 2009

One other difference in Elemental was the decision to have multiplayer support. There's a single player reason for this - I want to see how people play the game before the game is released so that I can incorporate clever strategies into the AI.

 

I like this. Meaning that the AI might actually use human techniques to win a game. I wonder if it's possiblw to add to the AI that ability to learn from game to game. I play a game and I always use the same stategy for exemple. The AI after game 10 knows how I react and adapts to it. Is this something possible or is it just science fiction?

 

Very cool stuff in any case.

on Jun 18, 2009

Is this something possible

It is theoretically possible, but no guarantee that it's going to be practical to do

on Jun 18, 2009


I like this. Meaning that the AI might actually use human techniques to win a game. I wonder if it's possiblw to add to the AI that ability to learn from game to game. I play a game and I always use the same stategy for exemple. The AI after game 10 knows how I react and adapts to it. Is this something possible or is it just science fiction?

https://forums.galciv2.com/138274

on Jun 18, 2009

For what it is worth, I think Frogboy will do a pretty good on things out of the gate. His AI work has always been better then others I have encountered, even those with cheats enabled.

on Jun 18, 2009

Wintersong

https://forums.galciv2.com/138274

Oh yeah!!

Your strategies could be written to disk and then analysed in future games by the AI.  It's something I definitely want to put into our next game (a fantasy strategy game) in some form so that the AI really does learn over the course of multiple games. 

on Jun 18, 2009

The best thing about GalCiv2's AI in my opinion is that the different races act very differently, but generally effectively.  All sides are not created equally--which I like--and the different AI strategies all work better or worse depending on the map size, map conditions, neighbors, the player, and a bit of luck.  it makes every game a little bit different.

on Jun 18, 2009

I can't wait, Galciv 2 was a rare treat, just being able to ramp up clock cycles for the AI and having a fair game against competitors who managed to come up with very different strategies that somehow all managed to give me a very hard time. Good times.

on Jun 18, 2009

Will you provide python-level api or also xml/other data files to tweak? I think specifically making a new kind of personality could be done by changing an xml file without altering the code.

Regarding python, will it be possible to associate one leaser's personality to a specific python module eporting the relevant functions so we could have several python modules providing different ai's which would be easy to share and work together?

Do you have an idea of how many low level calls will be exposed to python? Am I understanding correctly that you are going to put all the logic in python?

Mind you, considering the quality of Galciv ai, I don't think we'll need to mod Elemental's ai, but Civ IV's aggressive ai was a nice thing for instance, in that it changed not just a few weights but a whole lot of algorithms. Mixing aggressive and regular ai inside a same mod could be fun (particularly on island/continents games), so I wonder if something like that would be doable in Elemental.

on Jun 18, 2009

So.... Who wants to take bets on how many games before Stardock AI becomes sentient?

On another note: The link to societygame.net seems to be not working. Is this by design or some (temporary) problem with the site? I wanna see it.

on Jun 18, 2009

If an AI ever does become sentient, we're hosed...  It's sure to exterminate us just for the hell of it.

on Jun 19, 2009

I hope Elemental AI will have a strategic AI layer and a tactical AI layer. Too many TBS just move units somehow and make units/buildings without any strategy or goal at all.

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