Brad Wardell's site for talking about the customization of Windows.

0577_004 

In Elemental, you design your own units. Give them whatever name you want to give them, equipment them with weapons, armor, helmets along with deciding how much training they need.

Creating a soldier or a scout or a knight or what have you boils down to how long it takes you to have the equipment on hand and training which is raw time. 

There is still "quick build" but that simply, at a cost, gets supplies to that town a lot quicker. It's like having your "stuff" sent to you via Fed Ex Air rather than UPS Ground.

So we're still playing around with this concept so would love to hear thoughts on it.


Comments (Page 3)
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on Dec 24, 2008

Brad - This is pretty much stating what has already been stated which is simple enough as it is.. what exactly did you want feedback on? The concept has been commented on already..

what I would like to know is how the combat mechanics work..?

on Dec 24, 2008

I think it's a really interesting system, I hope it works as well in the game as in the imagination. Regarding this:

'But there is no concept of "can't use X if Y is evil"'.

What about the possibility of equippable items/resources excluding each other? Firstly, will players be able to mod in custom resources as well as design units? Then, assuming that, suppose for example someone wanted to make one resource that confers some extra magic resistance, and have that prevent you from equipping other items tagged magical?

Or am I barking up the wrong tree there?

on Dec 24, 2008

Ok, first I'm a bit disappointed in the seeming simplicity of the stats involved in the system. While we don't know how combat will work out in the end, I really hope it's not as simple as in GalCiv with only attack, defense and hp and a bunch of special abilities or in CivIV. Combat in CivIV was imho always boring, since you only had some stats and some special abilities, which made combat very predictable and boring. But we'll see how it will play out in the beta I guess. I'm prepared to complain about it anyway.

 

Now for the system, imho it has one strange part in it. What's preventing you to train the paladins for the whole 9 days instead of only 5 days, since they won't be finished earlier anyway?

Why is the cost per turn for the whole 9 turns, when you only do stuff (training) during 5 days while you only wait for the rest of the equipment during the other time, doing nothing? What happens if it takes 20 turns until a certain sword arrives, do I have to pay gold every turn until it arrives?

Or is training required to use the armor and sword (as the order of arrows seems to imply)?

Is there a limit on training time?

on Dec 24, 2008

Frogboy
The tech trees are differnet in Elemental than in GalCiv. They're a lot more like MOO 1 actually (a lot of parts of the game are more like MOO 1 (not 2) than GalCiv so it's not about researching "Super swords" or something but rather investing in a type of sword and it gets better and better over time which is automatically inherited by the units.

 

Two questions.

 

Is tech tree endless ? i.e. possible to research sword +1000 but with bizillions of research points. A lot of such models implemented in f2p browser-based mmo tbs games .

 

Is status of developed technologies stored in avatar? I mean once I got sword +9 it can be uses in another game.

on Dec 24, 2008

"Is status of developed technologies stored in avatar? I mean once I got sword +9 it can be uses in another game."

Yep, in GalCiv ship designs were saved, and would be shown when you have the technology researched to use it. For example, a ship which had a basic tiny hull, laser I tech weapons and ion II type engines would be hidden until the player researched the laser 1 tech and the ion engines 2 tech. I would guess we will have similar systems in place for Elemental.

on Dec 24, 2008

Vandenburg
Now for the system, imho it has one strange part in it. What's preventing you to train the paladins for the whole 9 days instead of only 5 days, since they won't be finished earlier anyway?

This was really what my concern was.  If training time is variable, then it makes no sense to ever train for less time than it takes to get the materials.  The only thing that matters is the maximum of the times for each box, so you should make EVERYTHING equal to that maximum time.

 

on Dec 24, 2008

Frogboy, are there going to be limits as to what kind of equipment that men will be capable of equipping?  I mean, because it seems unlikely that we will be able to give a man three weapons and wear two suits of armour at the same time.  It doesn't seem terribly ambitious right now, only the most basic implementation of a very attractive feature.

Which isn't intended to belittle it in any way, as it looks to be great.

on Dec 24, 2008

Simplicity123
If training time is variable, then it makes no sense to ever train for less time than it takes to get the materials.  The only thing that matters is the maximum of the times for each box, so you should make EVERYTHING equal to that maximum time.

I interpret it such that you can't beginning training a unit until it has all it's equipment first. I take the diagram in the original post to be sequential:

1) the player selects a unit (paladin)

2) the player selects a quantity (10)

3) the game informs them how long it'll take to assemble the components (9 turns)

4) after the components are assembled the unit enters 5 turns of training.

In other words, you can't really train an archer if he lacks a bow and arrows...

on Dec 24, 2008

It seems to me that each peice of 'equipment' you add to a unit should increse the training time it needs.  Not only that but it should also increase the gold cost per day to train that unit.  That would help keep your 'industrial' power from being the only thing that determines the size and quality of your army.

If you give a man a spear, it doesn't take very long for him to learn which end is the pointy one.  All you need is a few days, an open plot of land, and a drill sargent to shout at them for a bit.  We'll say it takes three days and one gold per day.  So training ten basic spearmen would take the three days of training and cost thirty gold.

But what if we want something more then just a spearman?  What if we want to train...  A MYSTIC WAR KNIGHT OF THE GOLDEN ROSE?

Well, Knights use swords, which take more training then a spear.  Moreover, you have to learn one on one, you can't just have a drill sargent shouting at you.  So learning the sword takes five days at three gold apeice for cost of all those training masters.  (Sword: +5 Days, +15 Gold)

They also use sheilds, which take two days at two gold per day. (Shield: +2 Days, +4 Gold)

Next is the warhorse.  Remember too, mounted knights were the elites, the tanks of the ancient world.  You have to factor in not just the training for the knight, but all the infastructure needed, including the fact that the knight needs a squire.  So add a horse doubles the needed manpower for a unit (an invisible squire).  Learning to fight well on horse back takes a week at five gold per day (Horse: +7 Days, +35 gold)

Then there's the armor.  It takes a four days to learn to fight comfortably in and maintain your full plate.  We might be cruel and require another squire, but we won't.  Four gold a day.  (Plate Armor: +4 days, +16 gold)

Finally, there's the mystic spell book that makes them a Knight of the Golden Rose, allowing them to heal their allies and boost morale in battle.  We need monks to copy the books, libraries to maintain them, priest to train the knights, mystic ink from Dimension X.  This all adds up.  Plus it take quite a long time for a unit to learn magic.  Ten days at eight gold a day.  (Magic Book of Healing: +10 days, +80 gold)

 

SO.  All told it takes 28 days and ~150 gold to train a single Mystic Knight of the Golden Rose, as opposed to 3 days and 3 gold to train a peasant spearman.  On the plus side, a couple Knights would be able to cut through and rout an entire unit of peasants without even breaking a sweat.

Otherwise you could wind up with a situation where players are outfitting ALL their units with tons of cool equipment.  I'd say the majority of most players armies should be made of realativily cheep and quick to train troops.  It makes using awsome elite units like the MYSTIC KNIGHTS OF THE GOLDEN ROSE far more realistic and satisfying.

on Dec 24, 2008

Most of my concerns have already been addressed by others, so I'll simply leave my thoughts on how I'd like to see this unit creation process expanded upon.

There are a couple of things I'm hoping are already intended to be added, or will be considered to be added as apart of the unit creation process.  First, I'd like to see a pop out or attached window to the armor/weapon/accessory selection screens for magical enchantments to be placed upon them.  For instance you could put a sensor enchantment on your "Elite Sentry" units helm, allowing them to see further and detect invisible or stealthed enemies.  I see it generally as a costly endeavor reserved specificly for units you consider to be your elite forces, but I suppose if you're wealthy enough you're army could benefit too, hehe.

Secondly, and I think this is the potentially more interesting one, I'd like to see training packages for your units.  Basicly, when you create a unit you select a training package to give it a focused purpose.  As an example, you want to make a recon/scout type unit to spy on your enemies, so you give them the "basic scout training" which gives them the ability to avoid detection.  As they gain experience, this basic training allows them to acquire more abilities and potentially focuses them even more.  For instance, basic scout training could lead to advanced recon abilities such as the ability to detect other stealthed units, invisible units, or even empire productions in progress etc.  On the flip side, the basic scout training could lead to advanced spy abilities, giving the unit the ability to kill off heroes, sabatoge the enemies efforts etc.  If you dont want a specially trained unit, just give them Basic Combat Training, the standard military training, and you got yourself a foot soldier.

And I'll point out something important, there needs to be a distinct difference between training, and experience.  Training gives you the tools you need to succeed, experience tells you how to best utilize them.  You should be able to train a unit for a purpose, and if they survive they should get that much better at doing so.  Perhaps, units could gain small amounts of experience as turns pass eventually plateauing, at which point the unit needs to be active in order to gain anymore experience.

As a more out there idea, if you have the training packages, you could also set it so you could retrain units, taking a recon unit and making it a front line soldier.  The units previous experience could either give them a head start into their new package, accelerate their experience gain, or they could be green but retain their previous training, and should you desire they could be switched back.

on Dec 24, 2008

Fintilgin
All told it takes 28 days and ~150 gold to train a single Mystic Knight of the Golden Rose, as opposed to 3 days and 3 gold to train a peasant spearman.  On the plus side, a couple Knights would be able to cut through and rout an entire unit of peasants without even breaking a sweat.

I'd like to add that i completely agree with this line of thought. Fintilgin is on the right track.

edit: Trimmed the quote, there ya go Tamren, merry christmas to you.

on Dec 24, 2008

Bloody hell. How many times will you repeat this? 

on Dec 24, 2008

Yikes, please cull your quotes. Unless you are quoting multiple topics at once you shouldn't need more than 4 lines.

on Dec 24, 2008

I dont know about you lot, this latest screenshot is bloody awful..... what res is it at?

on Dec 24, 2008

Tamren, I normally would keep my quotes short, but I felt that the entire point made as a whole was important, and that quoting a specific part was less optimal way of expressing that.  So I quoted the entire thing.  But lets not derail this thread with proper quotation ethics, you can always private message me if you think I'm out of line.

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